RR

[Hyper360]

In-Game Name: Jackson Schmidt
Steam Name: Hyper
SteamID: STEAM_0:1:417975487

Date and time of loss (specify the timezone): 10:13 GMT -2
What happened: So basically I was doing jewelry raid and I got countered by a few guys @dokidoki @MR.manipulator @John kidder. I had just gotten my jewelry raid done and I was leaving and my car was stuck so I went to push it off and these guy mugged my whilst I was still in progress with the jewelry raid and took the bag for them self's and got what I should've gotten and also rdm'ed whilst I had my hands up. And this should be counted as (RDM, power gaming and Countering a government raid) Because I still haven't sold the bag from the raid having the items from that raid whilst I'm still in a fight with cops the civilian cant mug me and interferer with a cop raid/ fight.
I have had a talk with higher ups countless times about stealing a bag from someone's raid and killing them before they acquire the prize and the bank / Jewelery raiders always win the sit and idk why Marwan and hockeyexpert and Austin hunter don't see this as a counter raid, you have to open your mind and see all the possible outcomes and not just judge the rules, word by word. I feel its ridiculous I have to make forum report about this.

What do you need refunded:

https://gyazo.com/20d0ca9d1e8485f9914a39a2ce41b2f2

https://gyazo.com/ee71cf729f1f0e5e5936336683bf113c
Evidence: https://medal.tv/games/garrys-mod/clips/HMnjkXKtItP9E/d1337u3HsfSn?invite=cr-MSxFRVosNjk2OTE0Myw
Read, understood and followed refund request rules and guidelines?: Yes

 

[Austin Hunter]

I spoke with Hyper about this situation. This was discussed between @HockeyExpert30 @Marwan and myself. Based on current rules it appears this would be allowed as this is post the raid as they had already left the property. The question became if this was something that would be allowed or not. As such, I told Hyper that there were some questions regarding this that could be raised such as the following:

Would this count as countering the Jewl or even a bank raid?
Is the area that the mug occurred considered to be public?

Per our belief in the rules it was something that would technically be allowed.

In hopes for this to be brought into a round table/rule reform discussion I am glad this is being placed here and would like for a SA+ to review when/if possible.

 

[Austin Hunter]

Rules In Question:

Spoiler: Rules/Info explaining how situation is permitted

4.2.11
Counter raids can only be performed on player owned buildings or on the Cargo Ship. You may not counter raid a government building or a player owned building/Cargo Ship if it is currently being raided by police at the time. Law Enforcement is exempt from this entire rule.

A player is unable to counter raid the Jewelry store per this rule.

4.2.12
During a police raid, the defending party of a raid is required to stay within their property limits, unless their intention is to flee and hide from law enforcement.

Once the player leaves the property they are no longer considered to be in a raid meaning that this was no longer a counter.

2.2.6
Surrendered parties (in a Raid, Mugging, Kidnapping and/or Robbery) may not be killed unless they are actively resisting, not valuing their life, threatening to kill or snitch on you, yelling for help or the Law Enforcement, or fail to fulfil requested demands.
2.2.7
During a PvP situation, such as muggings and raids etc., you may not kill surrendered parties simply for speaking a few words, unless they are actively yelling for help, trying to attract attention, insulting or threatening you (refer to rules 2.2.2 and 2.2.4).

BUT THEN
2.2.4
Attacking to kill should be carried out sensibly and not as a first resort, unless you have a good reason for immediate lethal action.

In this situation it appears that 2.2.4 would overrule 2.2.6/7 as they were firing upon the opposing party. One could reasonably articulate that he had a gun on him and had they turned to face the other threat losing fearRP would be stupid as they would now have another armed enemy behind them.

Finally,

4.1.6
You may not mug or kidnap in crowded places or near any NPCs, criminal or regular - you must do it in less populated and less exposed areas. This may not be in front of an NPC and/or governmental buildings such as the Police Department, Sheriff's Department, Hospital, Fire Department, City Hall, and the Bank.

The only argument I could make in defense of refunding the items would be 4.1.6. That being said, I also would believe that the tunnels, despite being a public thoroughfare is a great place for concealment of illegal activities due to there only being a few entrances and in reality no where an opponent could run. It is not exposed and is generally very low population unless someone is driving at that exact moment.

 

[Hyper360]

Eitherway i got rdmed? I had my hands up and listened to what they had to say and they didnt give me enough time to react anyways. So the situation shouldve been voided ingame because of the rdm? This is a key factor you are missing

 

[Hyper360]

This should also be counted as power gaming because there is no way for me to sell the bag because they waited for me to finnish the raid and knew where i was going

 

[toohightogame]

@Hyper360 Under Review.

 

[toohightogame]

@Hyper360 Please make a Player Report regarding this situation.

Request Closed and Denied.

Cheers.