Player Vs Staff

[DevulTj]

I will admit that it is not only staff members making comments, it is also some of the playerbase. But I will most-definitely stand by my word in the claim I made. Defenses of community management have included (in paraphrase of course) "they are held accountable by Gurrazor", "we don't remove players from the community without valid reason", etc. Some have suggested that players make staff reports. I don't think that we should pretend that community management is not untouchable. I'm sure there have been instances where Gurrazor may have said, "Hey Stuvi, maybe you shouldn't make fun of this guy who has a learning disability and didn't use proper punctuation in his staff application" or "Hey Tj, you acted rather rash in this decision because your emotions got the best of you, you shouldn't do it again". But because you guys own and manage the community, it does make sense to me that you're able to behave the way that you wish. I'm simply stating that it would be a better place if you set higher standards on yourself.

You're making assumptions here and are incorrect.

This right here is just completely false. Mark, the lead developer of Monolith, does not have open DM's on Discord. You, former lead developer and current developer, do not have your DM's open on Discord. One of the most heartbreaking things I remember from the staff meetings was hearing 40 suggestions regarding development and then Mark denying and shutting down every single one and then eventually saying "this is one we might be able to do", and then not doing it. Felt like a huge waste of time and really discouraged me (and probably other staff members) from sharing their ideas. Sil, from what I understand, was really good at discussing possible gamemode features/changes with players, and if an idea was not feasible, he would explain exactly why. Sil was very open to hear suggestions and it was great to talk to him from time to time.

I had my DM's open for years. Mark doesn't have them open for his own reasons - Let me make this clear, we don't accept DM's for Development Discussion because Discord DM's are a horrid place to hold your suggestions. Make a forum thread, like we've said 600 times.

But to speak on your dishonesty and lack of transparency, you and I both know a few instances of what we're saying I'm sure. With two particular staff demotions off the top of my head, there was a very vague reason for one of them, and for the other, it was complete dishonesty. I can understand for the first demotion that you may want to keep that information private out of respect for the individual who was demoted, but for the second, you were "open" in the sense that you gave a reason, but it gave a very one-sided and untrue depiction of the "incident" I think you called it.

Are you talking about your relative Maj.Kat? The same one who harassed and insulted Mark for not being allowed in the Development team? The only dishonesty here is your attempt at trying to keep a moral high ground.

It makes total sense to me that you aren't going to dedicate much time to Monolith because you're a whole ass man with a full-time job and everything lol. But what I cannot understand is the hypocrisy in this statement. I agree that COVID has been absolutely relentless and I do sympathize with you in that sense. The added stress from COVID and other pressures in life will make people reactive. I do not think it's fair to say that "we're only human" and recognize that mistakes and mishaps happen along the road when you are unable to have even some leniency with the actions and behaviors of others. It is true that as humans, of course, we get frustrated and we say things that are a little too honest to handle sometimes (more than ever now than in our entire lifetimes). But, I do not believe that in any way that one conversation/disagreement should lead to the demotion of a staff member who has worked for free for an extended period of time for you. This is the case in BOTH demotions I was previously referring to. It is in every way completely incomprehensible that someone would let one disagreement invalidate every good thing they have done for you.

Refer to above.

One more final criticism that I'd like to give while I'm here, THANK YOUR STAFF MEMBERS. Make them feel appreciated. They volunteer countless hours into your community and deserve recognition. I have discussed this issue with TOO MANY ex-staff members. Some who have put literal years into this place and felt unappreciated at the end of their time here. When the podcasts and such were a problem, I remember a few announcements telling everyone they were doing a good job, but there is little to no personalization to these messages. While I was an admin, I would say something like "Shit bro, you handled all those reports by yourself for the last 2 hours? Good shit man." or DMing fellow admins or moderators saying "Really appreciate how you handled x situation, you've got potential here". Sending a generalized announcement is a good step in the right direction and this shouldn't stop, but more personalized recognition is more than deserved by some of the members of your team.

We do! And we will continue to do so. In the past we didn't, but we've strived to improve this over the years and have done so.

 

[parkerx]

Are you talking about your relative Maj.Kat? The same one who harassed and insulted Mark for not being allowed in the Development team? The only dishonesty here is your attempt at trying to keep a moral high ground.

Perhaps you should be more honest with the demotions of Michael and Maj.Kat. It's quite late now and certainly should have been done when people asked about it. But when I'm able to read Maj's DMs, it becomes crystal clear that you made a rash and emotion-fueled decision and then tried to justify it with dishonesty and lack of transparency.

 

[Tye]

Off topic - Players say that they think that staff are watching them and people said "no staff arent". But in a certain staffs fragtage it shows there is a watchlist that alerts all staff when a certain player gets on.

 

[Thy]

Perhaps you should be more honest with the demotions of Michael and Maj.Kat. It's quite late now and certainly should have been done when people asked about it. But when I'm able to read Maj's DMs, it becomes crystal clear that you made a rash and emotion-fueled decision and then tried to justify it with dishonesty and lack of transparency.

This thread isn't really for discussing this particular issue, but more the broader issues in the community. I'm not sure you're gonna reach an agreement on that topic either so let's keep to the subject. TJ and you have both said you piece on it

 

[parkerx]

Off topic - Players say that they think that staff are watching them and people said "no staff arent". But in a certain staffs fragtage it shows there is a watchlist that alerts all staff when a certain player gets on. View attachment 12184

To be fair, a watchlist makes sense lol. It's designed to tell you about a potential threat or consistent behavior of someone. What is a little ridiculous is why some players were added to the watchlist. Sometimes, players were added to the watchlist for silly/exaggerated/unimportant reasons. I can't say from personal experience that this would cause staff members to closely monitor watchlisted players, but it can certainly set a prejudice on a player when it says "Potentially going to massrdm in the next few days" or something like that.

 

[Tye]

To be fair, a watchlist makes sense lol. It's designed to tell you about a potential threat or consistent behavior of someone. What is a little ridiculous is why some players were added to the watchlist. Sometimes, players were added to the watchlist for silly/exaggerated/unimportant reasons. I can't say from personal experience that this would cause staff members to closely monitor watchlisted players, but it can certainly set a prejudice on a player when it says "Potentially going to massrdm in the next few days" or something like that.

yeah it was more that, from what i know it wasnt public and whenever people got told they were being watched they got shutdown and told that staff had better things to do.

 

[parkerx]

This thread isn't really for discussing this particular issue, but more the broader issues in the community. I'm not sure you're gonna reach an agreement on that topic either so let's keep to the subject. TJ and you have both said you piece on it

I definitely believe that that conversation has a place in the public. It highlights two very real problems with the management of this community: dishonesty and vagueness.

 

[tazdevil335]

@Tye

Hi Tye,

However, these commands are typically used when players get offline and might need to drop items that were taken by that player due to a voided situation. They are used quite often in other situations like LTAP.

 

[parkerx]

yeah it was more that, from what i know it wasnt public and whenever people got told they were being watched they got shutdown and told that staff had better things to do.

What I do remember while staffing and being in the staff VC was a few instances of a staff member making comments similar to "I don't like x player, I hope he gives me a reason to ban him for a month and then request to have his ban extended just so I don't have to see him anymore". This shouldn't exist.

 

[Tye]

@Tye

Hi Tye,

However, these commands are typically used when players get offline and might need to drop items that were taken by that player due to a voided situation. They are used quite often in other situations like LTAP.

That would make sense but as the picture shows it was used so that staff could spectate a potential hacker. Its pretty believable that it was used to spectate certain people for the wrong reasons and that we have been constantly told that staff dont watch players.

 

[Tye]

What I do remember while staffing and being in the staff VC was a few instances of a staff member making comments similar to "I don't like x player, I hope he gives me a reason to ban him for a month and then request to have his ban extended just so I don't have to see him anymore". This shouldn't exist.

Damn that is a shame to hear but was suspected from a lot of the people in the community

 

[DevulTj]

What I do remember while staffing and being in the staff VC was a few instances of a staff member making comments similar to "I don't like x player, I hope he gives me a reason to ban him for a month and then request to have his ban extended just so I don't have to see him anymore". This shouldn't exist.

Those kinds of staff members don't stay for long.

 

[JucaMais]

I understand the frustration of the community based on actions that some CM members have committed and the way they have treated people on the forums and in-game. That's something we're working on as a collective to eliminate. We'll show that to you in the coming weeks and months.

Dont want to point fingers but the way you say looks like you are not putting yourself in that "..some CM members have commited". If you or whatever else dont recognize the mistaken that have been making, why should we expect there will be any change in this community at all?

You're making assumptions here and are incorrect.

These sad situations were players were harassed as parker said as example had occurred

Additionally, a note about the people who called to a lot of criticism in the past. A LOT of them are banned players who committed pretty awful acts such as Death threats and Doxing threats of our Staff Members and CM team. This won't fly. Not at all. I get it, this is meant to be a professional environment and we're meant to set an example to follow. We're working on that - but please don't expect a complete 100% success rate in these scenarios. This is a side thing for most of us, because we're passionate about this project. And with passion, comes the ability to get annoyed at people for trying to ruin that.

Of all the complaints/criticisms made so far, that you guys have been categorizing as "Inciting Drama", is there nothing from these situations that can be learned? not even a point to be considered for feedback and improvement of the server? It is ignorance not to recognize that we are not perfect with anything and turn our backs on criticisms, even the malicious ones, because deep down there is 1% truth that could be used to improvement. There is no way to improve if you guys suppress these such of complaints/discourses, even if it provoke you in an unconfortable way, there is no room for improvement than confronting your own discomforts. only by allowing us to discuss about these wounds points in the community that we ll be able to create a better place, different from it is being right now.

When someone shows an absurd opinion, considered wrong by the majority, you have 2 options: You can cancel that person and mock on him until that person is removed from the debate and silenced or you can attentively listen to this person's opinion until the end, however absurd and painful it may sound to you, and then and prove with easy and solid arguments how wrong that person is. By opting to do the second option, both you and the person both you people will win, you for considering such an opinion and perhaps adding something to your knowledge, and the person for being able to reconsider thir wrong opinion due to the facts that were thrown in their face.
Remember that guy who had that shitty nosense opnion about COVID and were banned for that?

But when you do the first option you give the illusion that that person's opnion is right, and this person organizes with others who think the same way and grow that wrong idea more and more, based in elements of hate and anger, they take strengh and this strengh is directed to destruction, in our case, people make drama and more more drama, even some organize themselves in those sort of "monolith drama groups". These dudes ends up nds up gaining more strength this way than if we had heard them and understood their complaints, however unfounded and banal they were, even if it was just complaints bcuz they were banned. Not allowing people to speak their minds is not allowing them to be corrected, its make them believe they re right just because they could'nt talk.

 

[DevulTj]

Off topic - Players say that they think that staff are watching them and people said "no staff arent". But in a certain staffs fragtage it shows there is a watchlist that alerts all staff when a certain player gets on. View attachment 12184

This means nothing negative whatsoever. If we have a suspicion on someone, they're added to a watchlist. What's wrong with that at all?

 

[Thanewolfe]

I'd like to add for everyone that has given some form of feedback or criticism, I'd like to personally say thank you. I would also like to add that it shows that some of you truly do care about the server and seeing the community and staff improve as a whole. It's very rare to find a community as truly unique as this, and have this many invested players and staff members that feel as strongly about this subject. Just know that we are listening, and we are open to this discourse and whatever changes may come of it.

 

[Tye]

This means nothing negative whatsoever. If we have a suspicion on someone, they're added to a watchlist. What's wrong with that at all?

Because in the past every time it has been brought up people got shut down saying that "Staff have better things to do and staff dont just watch people".

 

[DevulTj]

Dont want to point fingers but the way you say looks like you are not putting yourself in that "..some CM members have commited". If you or whatever else dont recognize the mistaken that have been making, why should we expect there will be any change in this community at all?

These sad situations parker said as example had occurred

Of all the complaints/criticisms made so far, that you guys have been categorizing as "Inciting Drama", is there nothing from these situations that can be learned? not even a point to be considered for feedback and improvement of the server? It is ignorance not to recognize that we are not perfect with anything and turn our backs on criticisms, even the malicious ones, because deep down there is 1% truth that could be used to improvement. There is no way to improve if you guys suppress these such of complaints/discourses, even if it provoke you in an unconfortable way, there is no room for improvement than confronting your own discomforts. only by allowing us to discuss about these wounds points in the community that we ll be able to create a better place, different from it is being right now.

When someone shows an absurd opinion, considered wrong by the majority, you have 2 options: You can cancel that person and mock on him until that person is removed from the debate and silenced or you can attentively listen to this person's opinion until the end, however absurd and painful it may sound to you, and then and prove with easy and solid arguments how wrong that person is. By opting to do the second option, both you and the person both you people will win, you for considering such an opinion and perhaps adding something to your knowledge, and the person for being able to reconsider thir wrong opinion due to the facts that were thrown in their face.
Remember that guy who had that shitty nosense opnion about COVID and were banned for that?

But when you do the first option you give the illusion that that person's opnion is right, and this person organizes with others who think the same way and grow that wrong idea more and more, based in elements of hate and anger, they take strengh and this strengh is directed to destruction, in our case, people make drama and more more drama, even some organize themselves in those sort of "monolith drama groups". These dudes ends up nds up gaining more strength this way than if we had heard them and understood their complaints, however unfounded and banal they were, even if it was just complaints bcuz they were banned. Not allowing people to speak their minds is not allowing them to be corrected, its make them believe they re right just because they could'nt talk.

You're making a bad assumption. I'm not clean of that either - I just speak as a collective of the Community Management and not just myself. Don't assume, it just looks like you're fuelled by anger in this way.

There's a difference between criticism and personal targeting of our staff and CMs. People can criticize without personal insults and threats. This is why they're banned for "inciting drama."

Because in the past every time it has been brought up people got shut down saying that "Staff have better things to do and staff dont just watch people".

This is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

 

[Thy]

Off topic - Players say that they think that staff are watching them and people said "no staff arent". But in a certain staffs fragtage it shows there is a watchlist that alerts all staff when a certain player gets on. View attachment 12184

Right, this i think are two different things being talked about. Correct me if I'm wrong.

When players say "staff are watching me" I believe they mean that the staff in question is actively following them invisible in no-clip, watching their every move.
To be completely clear, we don't follow around a specific singular player for hours on end just to be able to do a "hahah gotcha" when they slip up.
Granted, it may seem like it. We're generally only watching people in no-clip for a few certain reasons, I'll list them in a general fashion.

1. We're randomly flying around in no-clip all over the map keeping an eye on the general state of things when we see a player breaking a rule or what not. We pop out of noclip and deal with it. This can very easily seem to the player(s) that we were just watching them and waiting for a rulebreak.
2. We see an area where there's an abnormal amount of players gathered, we sometimes fly over just to see what's going on and to make sure nothing bad is happening. Experience tells us that the more players in one area, the more rulebreaks occur in a shorter time. Generally.
3. There's a situation like a raid, robbery or shootout etc. We often watch those for obvious reasons if we can.
4. A player has said or done something that leads us to believe they are about to commit a rulebreak, and therefore we watch them to act on it. This is by far the least occurring of the four.

Again the above is a general list, there can be other circumstances that leads to us watching a player. To be clear: Player targeting by staff is in no way shape or form tolerated.
You may no believe that, but if anyone comes to me with evidence of a staff member targeting or treating a player unfairly I will always look into it. My DM's are, and have always been open for the past four years, and 99% of people who message me gets a reply unless I am sleeping or inebriated.

Now, the watchlist function shown in the screenshot above is something entirely different to "watching a player" as the term is often used. The watchlist is a command that we can use to make a short message show up when a certain player connects.
These messages are often short notes to help staff online at the time to handle anything that was unfinished from another sit.
Usually these watch-messages will be things like "Has to drop 2x mp9's" or "Frequently VDM's" or anything like that. The first MP9 example is if someone gains items due to a rulebreak and they have disconnected from the server, preventing us from retrieving the items, we leave a note. That way when the player re-connects, any staff online can go delete those illegally gained items.
The frequent VDM note is simply to call attention from staff so they think "Hey, if this guy drives around really fast in a tow truck later today, I should keep an eye on it".

The watchlist is a lot less sinister than it sounds, and is generally only a tool to help the staff help you to have a better experience.

 

[parkerx]

Those kinds of staff members don't stay for long.

I really do hate to break it to you, but I still see their names on the staff roster. I wouldn't mind sending you some DM's on Discord about it but you failed to accept my friend request that I had pending for weeks, and I'm unable to DM you.

 

[DevulTj]

I really do hate to break it to you, but I still see their names on the staff roster.

You can say or believe what you want.
You're not providing any kind of context for specific members, and you probably won't.

If it helps. We either reform said staff member to improve their conduct, or they're removed. That's the fact here.