Disagreement with dubsmaster

[Valentino]

Your Steam Name: Valentino
Your SteamID: STEAM_0:0:154405130
Your Character Name: Valentino Meid

Admin being reported: @dubsmaster

Reason for Report: I'm not making this report to get dubsmaster punished but I do disagree with his ruling in a staff sit. The staff sit was about my RDM report, which I also made a player report for which was denied since it was already handled in-game so I guess this is the only thing I can do now.

I was a pine county deputy at the time talking to 2 civilians in front of the layer 2 bank. I was there for approximately 3 minutes (probably even shorter) when I got shot in the back of the head without any roleplay. I reported the situation and @dubsmaster ended up taking the report. Johnny Cash said his reason for killing me was because the bank timer was at 7/6 minutes and he was planning to rob the bank. Dubsmaster agreed and saw this as a valid reason to shoot me.

I disagree with this, as I mentioned to dubsmaster, because of the following rules:

1. Attacking to kill should be carried out sensibly and not as a first resort, unless you have a good reason for immediate lethal action.
2. Law Enforcement may only be harmed if they are a direct threat to you. Passing by officers and deputies, such as those obeying NLR, may not be harmed unless they initiate on you.

I feel because I was not currently holding any weapon or showing any intention of wanting to arrest him (I didn't even see him or know he was there) this was not a good reason for immediate lethal action. I was in no way a direct threat to him. He could have just simply waited the time required to start the bank raid anyway and hope I would have left by then or he could have tried taking me hostage but killing me because I was near the bank seems like a bad reason.

If for some reason this logic does hold up does that mean I can just go to the bank and kill every single person there because I was planning to rob the bank and the civilians might have tried calling 911 or might have had a gun and wanted to stop me even though the cooldown hasn't even ended yet?

Time of Occurrence: 8:30 CET 3/13/2021
Evidence to support your claim: https://gyazo.com/cec8ea7fa2ea0da2f46dd0f24c9eb47d

Additional members involved/witnessing: Johnny Cash
Read, understood and followed staff report rules?: Yes

 

[dubsmaster]

After reviewing the rules I will have to agree with you and apologize for the ruling I made. For future reports, ill make sure to keep these rules in mind. At the time I was abiding by this rule:

You may not kill a Law Enforcement Officer unless you have a valid roleplay reason to do so. These could include but are not limited to, visibly carrying illegal weapons or visibly performing an illegal activity. These reasons depend on the context.

Robbing the bank is visibly committing however as you stated there is no roleplay in that and you didn't even know he was robbing it until he came to kill you. I feel as if these two rules contradict each other a bit so hopefully, you can see where I came from in the original sit.

 

[Valentino]

After reviewing the rules I will have to agree with you and apologize for the ruling I made. For future reports, ill make sure to keep these rules in mind. At the time I was abiding by this rule:

You may not kill a Law Enforcement Officer unless you have a valid roleplay reason to do so. These could include but are not limited to, visibly carrying illegal weapons or visibly performing an illegal activity. These reasons depend on the context.

Robbing the bank is visibly committing however as you stated there is no roleplay in that and you didn't even know he was robbing it until he came to kill you. I feel as if these two rules contradict each other a bit so hopefully, you can see where I came from in the original sit.

Thank you, I appreciate that and I understand where you were coming from. The rule you mentioned has always been a bit of a vague rule in my opinion though because solely going by that rule you could run around with a rifle and shoot all law enforcement because you are visibly carrying a weapon, which is obviously not allowed. I hope the rules could be changed to better clarify when and when not you can kill law enforcement after this.

Anyway, as I said, my intent with this staff report wasn't to get you in trouble and I hope you won't get in any.

 

[Thanewolfe]

Under review.

 

[Thanewolfe]

@Valentino Meid,

Thank you for your report. For purposes of clarification, I would like to give my stance on the original report. After reviewing your footage that you provided, I can confirm that the player violates Section 2.2 [Player versus Player]

12. Law Enforcement may only be harmed if they are a direct threat to you. Passing by officers and deputies, such as those obeying NLR, may not be harmed unless they initiate on you.

Additionally, there was no "good reason for immediate lethal action", thus violating a second rule in Section 2.2 [Player versus Player]

4. Attacking to kill should be carried out sensibly and not as a first resort, unless you have a good reason for immediate lethal action.

As such, this player should have been punished accordingly for RDM. That being said, I believe that dubsmaster did not act in bad faith, as he was interpreting "visibly carrying illegal weapons" as justification for the lethal action. I appreciate dubsmaster owning up to his mistake on the ruling and I will also note that you wished for clarification on the incident. Moving forward, I believe that he will be more careful in situations similar to this and will make the correct call. Therefore, I will conclude that no further action is required at this time.

Staff report concluded.


Best Regards,
Thanewolfe