Staff Report - Fail RP - Failure to value hostages life.

[Zynthax]

Your Steam Name: Neville es un homosexual
Your Steam ID: 76561198110701569
Your Character Name (If Applicable): Rafael Viloria
Admin being reported( Tag by writing @ before their forum name) @StewartJames @Doug
Reason for Report: FailRP, failure to value hostages life.
Time of Occurrence: 2:30 p.m GMT-5
Evidence to support your claim:

Additional members involved/witnessing: @GᴏᴅᴢɪʟʟᴀTʜᴇTᴀɴᴋ (if you guys could tag him it would be cool) Nik Melander, Simon Rile, Jackie Wong, Jimmy Finley (I don't know their forum names)
Read, understood and followed staff report rules?: Yes

I'm going to do a brief explanation of what happened from the very beginning,
So we were doing a bank raid, our drills finished and we started leaving. We had three hostages and we released one of them we stayed with two and we were going to leave with them under gunpoint so they wouldn't shoot us while we get to the car.
At that point, we go up the stairs and the first thing I see is @StewartJames taking off the zipties from the hostages for no apparent reason, you can see that in the video at 0:55 when he has the zipties on his hand and Nik Melander doesn't have the zipties anymore.

I'm going to start my argument here explaining why this report shouldn't be denied and why I'm reporting Doug too:

1. By the definitions that are in the server rules FailRP is: Actions performed by your character that are not realistic and do not correlate with the setting of the server and your roleplay role.

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Thinking about the fact that zipties IRL are these and that they are not that easy to take unless you have tweezers on you and cut them after doing some effort, then taking off the zipties not even doing a /me or roleplaying something at all is already not realistic, but if we add the fact that we had the two hostages (Nik Melander and Simon Rile) under gunpoint is even less realistic, because as cops they must value the hostage life at all times.

2. Why am I reporting Doug? Doug was the Asst. Chief at the moment we were doing the bank raid, as a Asst. Chief he must value the hostages life and coordinate the Police Department to avoid stupid actions from the rest of the police force, he was omitting the fact that xstewart removed their zipties just because with no roleplay at all.

Also, just to add rule 5.2.1 #8 states that "In a hostage situation, you are obligated to value the life of the hostage and begin negotiations. A superior Law Enforcement Officer/Lead Negotiator may, however, call off negotiations at any time if it is deemed necessary" @StewartJames you were coming inside the vault when we told you multiple times to not come inside because we were going to kill the hostages, even Doug ordered you as Asst. Chief multiple times to not do it and still, you were insisting in coming inside for no apparent reason.
And that's it, that's all from my POV.

 

[SomebodyEpic]

If anymore video is needed please let me know, I have 15 minutes of the raid clipped.

 

[StewartJames]

First of all, you already made a report in game that was handled.

Second, as you came upstairs, you communicated the hostages were coming up to be released. Further, you did not stipulate they ought not to be, or that you would shoot. I kept ten officers above the vault for 7 minutes in accordance with your demands as Doug negotiated.

After this, as they came up (to be freed no less) you had one or fewer guns on each hostage, as you were walking through a group of ten armed officers. I freed one at the front as they came through by untying them, and you did not argue or react, so judged it safe to do it for the rest covered by the other officers.

You still did not react.

We then allowed the hostages to run away before opening fire on you. No hostages died.

It seems to me the threshold for safety was met along with the fact that no hostage complained and the PD congratulated our tactical decisions, and therefore you are making this report out of spite for losing the cash and guns.
In response to failrp: swat officers carry both zipties and wire cutters to remove these on them in real life - a few seconds is a reasonable time.

In response to me coming in the vault - bryce had granted me corruption perms, halfway through he disconnected, and as you saw at this point I contained officers upstairs and treated it to the letter of departmental policy.

Complaining in OOC, making a report using @ and making a second report on forums will not change the outcome of a situation. The PD are not their for your entertainment or pleasure, they are there to keep innocents safe and prevent crime, both of which happened successfully and safely.

 

[Zynthax]

First of all, you already made a report in game that was handled.

Second, as you came upstairs, you communicated the hostages were coming up to be released. Further, you did not stipulate they ought not to be, or that you would shoot. I kept ten officers above the vault for 7 minutes in accordance with your demands as Doug negotiated.

After this, as they came up (to be freed no less) you had one or fewer guns on each hostage, as you were walking through a group of ten armed officers. I freed one at the front as they came through by untying them, and you did not argue or react, so judged it safe to do it for the rest covered by the other officers.

You still did not react.

We then allowed the hostages to run away before opening fire on you. No hostages died.

It seems to me the threshold for safety was met along with the fact that no hostage complained and the PD congratulated our tactical decisions, and therefore you are making this report out of spite for losing the cash and guns.
In response to failrp: swat officers carry both zipties and wire cutters to remove these on them in real life - a few seconds is a reasonable time.

In response to me coming in the vault - bryce had granted me corruption perms, halfway through he disconnected, and as you saw at this point I contained officers upstairs and treated it to the letter of departmental policy.

Complaining in OOC, making a report using @ and making a second report on forums will not change the outcome of a situation. The PD are not their for your entertainment or pleasure, they are there to keep innocents safe and prevent crime, both of which happened successfully and safely.

1. Yes I made a report in the server, with Doug, and you were not present at all so that's why I'm making this post. Also we explained Doug the whole thing and I believe he told us to make the report since he couldn't do any refunds and as I said you were not there with him there were no decisions taken into this matter at all.
2. Yes we did, we said that we were going to keep them on gunpoint until we got to the car, we didn't say at any moment we were going to shoot. Also as I stated we even released one of the hostages prior going up to show our IC good willing and that we just wanted to escape.
3. I also did react when I saw the hostages running away, it is actually seen in the video that I say something while the officers were also bodyblocking us.
There was so much people speaking inside that small room in the garage doorway.
We had 3 guns on them, it was Jackie's, Jimmy's and mine, not just one how you are saying.
4. Yes, Swat officer do carry wire cutters for cutting the zipties but as I said you did not roleplay anything at all. You just decided to take the zipties off not even being behind them and of course they ran away.
That wasn't tactical at all, that sounds more like a mix between power gaming and failrp.
I have nothing to say regarding the corruption perms, since I didn't know that.
Also you couldn't seem necessary to call off negotiations since we didn't show any intentions in the first place to start a shooting or actually kill the hostages, because if we had those intentions we wouldn't had let you in in the first place without killing them.
5. I personally didn't complain in ooc so please, I would be okay if you don't talk about something I didn't do
The fact that we got killed isn't something that annoys me, what actually annoys me is that you broke the rules from my pov. I expect that from an user, not from you as a staff.

I repeat, there was no outcome at all in the report we made in the server, you were not even taken into the sit and I heard we were told to make this report, which I am.

 

[Deleted member 12627]

From my view of this it looked as if the police force wanted to break negotiations with you since you were making unreasonable requests, however from an rp standpoint it did seem a bit ubsurd to just yank zip ties off of me while a .308 Galil is shoved down my back. I feel as if they should have left them on and instead opened fire on you as they had you all separated. I personally don’t think Stewart is in the wrong for this situation however because as I said your requests to take one of us with you would be a good reason to call off negations as it would endanger the hostages (us) lives.

This is my input and I will not longer reply as I was just a witness. I do not think Stewart broke any rules whatsoever with that said, but that’s just my opinion.

I don’t remember seeing Stewart push the vault and be told not to as I was tabbed out most the time watching YouTube while I was a hostage.

I do not know any details about Doug only of Stewart

 

[SomebodyEpic]

From my view of this it looked as if the police force wanted to break negotiations with you since you were making unreasonable requests, however from an rp standpoint it did seem a bit ubsurd to just yank zip ties off of me while a .308 Galil is shoved down my back. I feel as if they should have left them on and instead opened fire on you as they had you all separated. I personally don’t think Stewart is in the wrong for this situation however because as I said your requests to take one of us with you would be a good reason to call off negations as it would endanger the hostages (us) lives.

This is my input and I will not longer reply as I was just a witness. I do not think Stewart broke any rules whatsoever with that said, but that’s just my opinion.

I don’t remember seeing Stewart push the vault and be told not to as I was tabbed out most the time watching YouTube while I was a hostage.

I do not know any details about Doug only of Stewart

The negotiations were changed, as I knew the cops wouldn't allow us to take one of the hostages with us, I told Doug that we would walk both the hostages to our car with us and when we reached that point both of you (the hostages) would have been free to go and unharmed. However, that plan was stopped due to both of you being unzip-tied allowing you to run away.

 

[StewartJames]

Right - Doug did not relay that the hostages were being taken to the cars, only that they were coming up to be released.
Our general policy is to intercept and secure hostages if and when they come outside of the area under your control - as your car was clamped outside, our options were either to remove zipties and let the hostages flee while you were essentially in a choke point, or to take you out by your cars with the hostages still in your control - it was safer for the hostages to be removed there, rather than get shot up in a shootout in a large open space in front of the bank. Had your car not been clamped I would have far preferred to let you in with the hostages in our control and then light up the car.

As you were coming up the stairs, two were around the corner facing away from us as you can see when Nik's zipties were released - arguably even out of voice range. As no communication reached us that we could not release them at that point, I did so without threat of force from you. You were in a tight corridor outnumbered - this was the safest and most controlled position to end the raid and take you down.

Also for reference on my screen I was perpendicular to Nik Melander when unziptying him - but it seems unreasonable that PD are expected to seriously roleplay out /me unzipties nik when a /me is already auto generated, and this is never done by criminal parties in a combat situation.

 

[Zynthax]

Right - Doug did not relay that the hostages were being taken to the cars, only that they were coming up to be released.
Our general policy is to intercept and secure hostages if and when they come outside of the area under your control - as your car was clamped outside, our options were either to remove zipties and let the hostages flee while you were essentially in a choke point, or to take you out by your cars with the hostages still in your control - it was safer for the hostages to be removed there, rather than get shot up in a shootout in a large open space in front of the bank. Had your car not been clamped I would have far preferred to let you in with the hostages in our control and then light up the car.

As you were coming up the stairs, two were around the corner facing away from us as you can see when Nik's zipties were released - arguably even out of voice range. As no communication reached us that we could not release them at that point, I did so without threat of force from you. You were in a tight corridor outnumbered - this was the safest and most controlled position to end the raid and take you down.

Also for reference on my screen I was perpendicular to Nik Melander when unziptying him - but it seems unreasonable that PD are expected to seriously roleplay out /me unzipties nik when a /me is already auto generated, and this is never done by criminal parties in a combat situation.

1. We would have argued with you about the car but we didn't even got to that point because we got killed after you released them. You cannot base in something that could have happened or not, specially because we didn't get to that point. Also you don't know which car were we using how do you know you clamped our car? Any of us had warrants and we also could drive away after we revived and did NLR
Also we negotiated what we did negotiate, there's no point in doing all that rp if you are just going to unziptie them and let them run away to shoot us, un complying with the criminals and with what Doug said through your radio.
2. You are expected to role play at all times, as I said I expect a rulebreak from an user not from you.
3. Neither Jackie or me were facing away I saw you taking off the zip ties myself, there's no way I could have done that without seeing to the front. It also doesn't make sense that I was facing away if there was nothing behind me.

Also, about your reference, you had your shield on your hands, even if you were perpendicular still power gaming, at least coming by the rules and by the definition that is there.

 

[StewartJames]

I believe as I am sure that Doug will agree that as someone called in a car clamp outside, this was the safest option possible, and it worked without killing or even endangering the hostage. At the point of unziptying Nik, only one person was looking at him when I began the process, and I did roleplay, I held officers back and then allowed the gameplay mechanic to do the /me for me, along with the delay it intentionally has with having to hold E on something to interact with it.

I can very well base something in what could have been as that is how decisions are made, and this decision clearly played out well.

I followed both the rules and departmental policy. Policy states hostages are not to leave the controlled area with the hostage takers unless released, and the rules state the following.

In a hostage situation, you are obligated to value the life of the hostage and begin negotiations. A superior Law Enforcement Officer/Lead Negotiator may, however, call off negotiations at any time if it is deemed necessary.

We valued the life of the hostage by beginning negotiations. And following your demands. We were not flippant about the lives of those taken hostage and the end result was their safety and your arrests. As a superior law enforcement officer (swat command) I made use of my right to call off negotiations at a critical point to secure you and the hostages - a necessary decision.

I wholeheartedly believe that this gang cannot come to terms with the fact that they were outsmarted by police, and so are now trying to bend rules to their benefit. For that reason, I will both stop replying to this thread until it is reviewed, and point you to the following rule so you don't waste your own time.

Any item lost during a hostage situation that takes place solely for monetary or materialistic gain may not be refunded, nor the raid timer voided. This rule takes effect if you are the instigating party, and the item was lost due to a single or light rule-break. This is up to staff discretion.

 

[Zynthax]

I believe as I am sure that Doug will agree that as someone called in a car clamp outside, this was the safest option possible, and it worked without killing or even endangering the hostage. At the point of unziptying Nik, only one person was looking at him when I began the process, and I did roleplay, I held officers back and then allowed the gameplay mechanic to do the /me for me, along with the delay it intentionally has with having to hold E on something to interact with it.

I can very well base something in what could have been as that is how decisions are made, and this decision clearly played out well.

I followed both the rules and departmental policy. Policy states hostages are not to leave the controlled area with the hostage takers unless released, and the rules state the following.

In a hostage situation, you are obligated to value the life of the hostage and begin negotiations. A superior Law Enforcement Officer/Lead Negotiator may, however, call off negotiations at any time if it is deemed necessary.

We valued the life of the hostage by beginning negotiations. And following your demands. We were not flippant about the lives of those taken hostage and the end result was their safety and your arrests. As a superior law enforcement officer (swat command) I made use of my right to call off negotiations at a critical point to secure you and the hostages - a necessary decision.

I wholeheartedly believe that this gang cannot come to terms with the fact that they were outsmarted by police, and so are now trying to bend rules to their benefit. For that reason, I will both stop replying to this thread until it is reviewed, and point you to the following rule so you don't waste your own time.

Any item lost during a hostage situation that takes place solely for monetary or materialistic gain may not be refunded, nor the raid timer voided. This rule takes effect if you are the instigating party, and the item was lost due to a single or light rule-break. This is up to staff discretion.

As I said beginning the process of uziptiying the hostages, for no valid reason from my pov while you have your shield on your hands. Also I am just applying what is already written in the rules to this context, so just stop saying I'm bending rules in my favour. As I said my intention is not to recover what I already lost, because I can buy it again without doing that much effort, but what happened there is really annoying because you seemed that you didn't want to rp properly by taking the zipties off.
There was no critical point at that moment because we were just leaving, our car wasn't at the parking lot of bank because we are not that dumb but that's something you didn't know IC, the only car that was at the bank was one that we had intentions to steal but since we knew you were going to clamp them I hided a car close to the bank, and that's something you didn't know either.

With that being said, since I guess you won't answer anymore I will limit to wait the answer of whoever respond to this, don't take it personal because it is not.

 

[PMX]

Did the hostages leave this situation unharmed or not?

 

[StewartJames]

Did the hostages leave this situation unharmed or not?

yes both of them

 

[Zynthax]

Did the hostages leave this situation unharmed or not?

They could have not, Jack was able to shot them, so was I but then the shooting with the PD started.

 

[PMX]

Then if they survived and if police valued the hostages lives, by starting negotiations, I don't see why we are even discussing this situation.

If the police outsmarted you, that is your fault entirely. If they saw a chance to take you out without harming the hostages and they succeeded, that is valid.

The situation will not be voided and no refunds will be authorized.
Staff report denied.