Staff Report

[Realzx]

In-Game Name: Danny Trevors
Steam Name: Realzx
SteamID: STEAM_0:0:12964148


Admin being reported: @Eldar987


Reason for Report: Unjustified ban
Time of Occurrence: Yesturday
Evidence to support your claim:

So I pick-locked a car outside the bar at the docks, in the public car park. A guy then comes and kills me, I presume for stealing his car.

I return around 20 minutes later and attempt to raid the blue warehouse, I killed 2 guys here and as I was looting them I got taken into a sit by Eldar and he informs me I will be banned for breaking the raid timer.

Ive asked a few admins and other people who play on the server about this rule and it seems everyone is saying that pick locking a vehicle does not count as a raid timer which seems kind of obvious to me?

Quote from a senior admin:
Technically no, as you are not raiding a property that can be owned or is a government property, you are just having a firefight inside of an infrastructural/utility structure. Additionally it isn't a structure or location that has any purpose of raiding to begin with, as nothing can ever be gained from raiding it specifically, nor does any specific party own it other than the government overall. Which means that the only thing that is really being done is grand theft of the vehicle. Which means the person who shot and killed someone is just reacting to their car being stolen.

 

[Eldar987]

The problem occurs when you are lockpicking this car, directly outside of their home. One guy walks out with a gun and you INSTANTLY attempt to gun him down. By your own words, it was a public place you had ZERO right to fire at him when he opened the door, shooting him and into his base behind him. That is easily viewed as a raid, as I explained to you. If you open your door and a barrage of gun fire heads your way with no initiation I would absolutely label that as a raid. A failed one, but that counts against the timer. You lockpocking the car really has nothing to do with it. It's the fact, he walked outside of his home and you started putting rounds into the place. You are centered around the banning being because you were lockpicking a car. That's not the offense here.

You then come RIGHT back and proceed to raid them following this situation. (Raid cool down ignored.). That was just going to be a minor punishment. You then completely do a turn around and make up a story about how you were lock-picking at the City Hall carpark and no-where near their base the first time you were killed, which once again contradicts what you say in this report.

Your ban encompasses both "Violating the Raid Timer Rule." as well as "Lying to staff in a sit." the length is due to your priors and I feel that is even too generous with how disrespectful you were in the sit to both myself and the reporting party.

I stand by my decision and am not willing to reverse it. You knew exactly what you were doing.

 

[Realzx]

You then completely do a turn around and make up a story about how you were lock-picking at the City Hall carpark and no-where near their base the first time you were killed, which once again contradicts what you say in this report.

Just want to start by saying this is either a complete lie on his behalf, or hes clearly misunderstood what I said. I had no reason to lie about anything and Ive never said to you I picklocked a vehicle at City Hall.

The problem occurs when you are lockpicking this car, directly outside of their home

The car was in a public car park opposite the bar, definitely not "directly outside of their home". https://gyazo.com/24d6a59816e1f00f946aa7904cb66661

They have a huge amount of space inside and outside their "home"/warehouse area to park cars.

you had ZERO right to fire at him when he opened the door, shooting him and into his base behind him.

Rule Quote: If you have your weapon out on safety, you are allowed to attack someone who is aiming straight at you.

If somebody is coming towards you or your friends with a gun drawn while you are trying to steal a car and the alarm is going off, they are threatening your life, how is that not classed as initiation.

If you open your door and a barrage of gun fire heads your way with no initiation I would absolutely label that as a raid.

The initiation is him coming towards us with his gun drawn. He heard the car alarm and made the choice to exit his base towards us with his weapon drawn. I didn't make any attempt to enter/raid or picklock his property.

You then come RIGHT back and proceed to raid them following this situation.

I came back 15-20 minutes later.

I stand by my decision and am not willing to reverse it. You knew exactly what you were doing.

Its a staff report, not a ban appeal.

 

[Eldar987]

Just want to start by saying this is either a complete lie on his behalf, or hes clearly misunderstood what I said. I had no reason to lie about anything and Ive never said to you I picklocked a vehicle at City Hall.


The car was in a public car park opposite the bar, definitely not "directly outside of their home". They have a huge amount of space inside and outside their "home" to park cars.

The initiation is him coming towards us with his gun drawn. He made the choice to exit his base towards us with his weapon drawn. I didn't make any attempt to enter/raid or picklock his property.


I came back 15-20 minutes later.

So, just so I'm understanding this correctly. You say the car was far away in another car park. I agree with you! That's totally correct. It's my verbiage there, the warehouse is quite literally connected to that parking area. We both agree, you lockpicking a car is not raiding. There is no confusion there. You were not punished for lockpicking the car, the car had nothing to do with the raid timer break or punishment period.

The reason you were banned: once more, is that he opened his door with a weapon in hand a good distance away from you. You instantly opened fire on him. Shooting at him and into his base, which is taken as a raid by just about anyone's standard. You are firing on someone on their property for no real reason with no interaction. He then kills you.

You then came back about 20 minutes later or so, as you said. We agree on that as well. The raid timer is ONE HOUR per Successful or Failed raid. So you come back and then full on raid the place. That's where the timer was broken.

You engaging him FIRST, shooting at him, on his property, INTO his building. Is a raid. You coming back, and full on raiding them is also a raid. I don't know what is unclear about that to you.

Edit: Forgot to address. The rule about shooting as long as you have a weapon out on safety applies to being put under FearRP. This is not meant to mean you can just shoot anyone with a weapon out who stares in your general direction 100ft away that has not engaged you in RP in anyway. You warped the understanding of that rule.

 

[Realzx]

-You say the car was far away in another car park. I agree with you! That's totally correct.
-the warehouse is quite literally connected to that parking area.

Your saying 2 different things here.

Picture: https://gyazo.com/24d6a59816e1f00f946aa7904cb66661

The car we was picklocking was parked on the red ring, that is not connected at all, they have a lot of space inside their warehouse area to park vehicles.

The reason you were banned: once more, is that he opened his door with a weapon in hand a good distance away from you. You instantly opened fire on him. Shooting at him and into his base, which is taken as a raid by just about anyone's standard. You are firing on someone on their property for no real reason with no interaction. He then kills you.

I was a good distance away, thats why we didn't shoot at him straight away. He started instantly running towards the vehicle, we stuck to the rules, acted in self defense and shot him.

You engaging him FIRST, shooting at him, on his property, INTO his building. Is a raid. You coming back, and full on raiding them is also a raid. I don't know what is unclear about that to you.

He is engaging us first what are you talking about? He is forcing us to shoot him in self defense because he has his gun drawn and his aiming/running at us.

He made the choice after hearing the car alarm, to exit the base and run to the car, with the gun drawn, running towards us with that gun drawn is him initiating on us.

So, you admit to us being far away from the building but because bullets went inside its considered a raid?

Again, we made no attempt to enter the building, he came out to us with his rifle. I don't know what is unclear about that to you.

 

[Eldar987]

Your saying 2 different things here.

Picture: https://gyazo.com/24d6a59816e1f00f946aa7904cb66661

The car we was picklocking was parked on the red ring, that is not connected at all, they have a lot of space inside their warehouse area to park vehicles.

I was a good distance away, thats why we didn't shoot at him straight away. He started instantly running towards the vehicle, we stuck to the rules, acted in self defense and shot him.

He is engaging us first what are you talking about? He is forcing us to shoot him in self defense because he has his gun drawn and his aiming/running at us.

He made the choice after hearing the car alarm, to exit the base and run to the car, with the gun drawn, running towards us with that gun drawn is him initiating on us.

So, you admit to us being far away from the building but because bullets went inside its considered a raid?

Again, we made no attempt to enter the building, he came out to us with his rifle. I don't know what is unclear about that to you.

Ah, here's the disconnect. I see it now. You fired the second he came out of the door and you saw him. After you fired at him, he THEN ran towards you and killed you. You were already shooting before he even engaged you. Yes, you were far away from the building. No RP was initiated. In the real world a BUNCH of people will jump up and check outside if they hear a car alarm. Him opening his door, is not initiation.

I think I've said all I can here. I firmly believe I did not make an error in your punishment. Pending to PMX/Realz/Stuvi

 

[Realzx]

Ah, here's the disconnect. I see it now. You fired the second he came out of the door and you saw him. After you fired at him, he THEN ran towards you and killed you. You were already shooting before he even engaged you. Yes, you were far away from the building. No RP was initiated. In the real world a BUNCH of people will jump up and check outside if they hear a car alarm. Him opening his door, is not initiation.

Just, no. This is so incorrect, you changed your story.

He ran out and ran towards the car, with his gun drawn, so we opened fire.

In the real world a BUNCH of people will jump up and check outside if they hear a car alarm. Him opening his door, is not initiation.

In the real world if you run towards people stealing a car with an assault rifle aimed at them, the chances are high that they would shoot you if they are armed.

 

[Eldar987]

Just, no. This is so incorrect, you changed your story.

He ran out and ran towards the car, with his gun drawn, so we opened fire.



In the real world if you run towards people stealing a car with an assault rifle aimed at them, the chances are high that they would shoot you if they are armed.

I've been saying the same thing here Realz, he opened his door. You shot at him right away.

 

[Realzx]

I've been saying the same thing here Realz, he opened his door. You shot at him right away.

No you haven't though. Your basically trying to say I shot him earlier than I actually did.

The green circle in this picture shows where the guy was when we shot him, clearly running towards the vehicle trying to intercept us stealing it with his rifle drawn.

https://gyazo.com/ec738b4327d7bda1a67696e5f70df001

Your acting like he still had his key out and I shot him on his doorstep which is not what happend.

He ran towards us for around 1-2 seconds with his assault rifle pointed at the car.

 

[Lemon jayde]

Buddy you literally shot me from the side as soon as I got out of my base, you were never by the car, you were even on my property when I came out. I didn't know you were there till you shot towards me and my friend. I was literally focused on my car in the parking lot sprinting towards it and never saw you. Also i can't be pointing my gun when I am sprinting (its literally in safety), hope you know that. It was also pretty obvious you used my car alarm to lure me out and shoot me from the side while you sat outside hidden in our property

 

[Realzx]

Buddy you literally shot me from the side as soon as I got out of my base, you were never by the car,

I was at the car with my friend, I hid because I heard you.

It was also pretty obvious you used my car alarm to lure me out and shoot me from the side while you sat outside hidden in our property

If it was so obvious, why would you come out with a gun out? That makes no sense.
I was never in/on the property I was just next to it.

 

[Lemon jayde]

You were on the property by the little office box infront of blue waiting for us to exit. And it was at the end when I killed u I knew your intention was to kill us and raid when we were coming out.

 

[Realzx]

This is exactly what im trying to say here, how can I be given a raid cooldown when there was no attempt at a raid. The owner willingly came out on hearing a car alarm and he was armed with a rifle.

 

[Stuvi]

Under review.

 

[Stuvi]

First of all I want to make clear that stealing/lockpicking a vehicle is NOT counting as a raid. The marked position in Realzx picture is not part of their property either.
The rules define a raid as the following:

>> The act of breaking into a property and robbing it and its residents of their personal belongings.​

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The warehouse owner's intention is very clear in this situation: He hears his vehicle is being stolen due to the ongoing alarm and wants to check it out. He leaves the building with a weapon visibily equipped and heads toward the vehicle. This action alone can be seen as an aggression - and upon that the thief reacted and opened fire. This is all totally fine - don't leave your warehouse with a weapon if you don't mean to engage in a shootout. Seriously, what else did you expect when trying to engage with a thief anyway? He ain't giving you a handful of flowers to say sorry.

Apparently the thief died in the shootout and returns ~20 minutes later to engage in a raid - which is totally fine since he obeyed the NLR.

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Eldar is in the wrong in this situation and will be warned for handing out this premature punishment. Better review of both parties has to be done in the future.

Realzx has been unbanned and Lemon jaydes refund request has been denied.