Attackers Vs. Defenders (NEEDS BALANCING)

[RekonZero]

So I'm going to post the video of the raid first and foremost. The raid lasted around 14 minutes and initially it seemed to be 3 or 4 guys, a few late comers came to play janitor for their boys who went down. Eventually our defenses fell and we were over run.

So now lets talk about how unbalanced this is. There are no rules against players joining a raid at will. Anyone could be walking by and could get recruited to join in on a raid at any point during the raid. As a raid defender I only have what's on me and what's on my boys to defend and it's certainly not enough to defend against 8 or 9 guys throughout a 14 minute raid. No one brings that kinda supplies with them to make drugs. Realistically, the police would of been of help but there are points when the server is low pop or just doesn't have enough cops online. One cop responded and was presumably taken out shortly after arrival. So lets think about that for a minute.

The raiders can
1) call for back up as much as they want as long as the back up hasn't been involved in the raid (no matter how long the raid goes on for they could theoretically continue to get people to join in and assist while the defenders are stuck in between a rock and a hard place assuming they don't have the same luxury and a majority of the time that is the case)
2) Loot their buddies bodies for med kits, cpr kits, etc. mid raid to last even longer vs the defenders
3) Have their backup bring anything they are running low on (ammo, Kevlar, first aid)

and lets compare that to what a defender can do during low pop/low cop volume hours

1) hold a entry point so the raiders can't push in without taking fire
2) hold out until whatever supplies you brought are depleted
3) loot raiders bodies mid raid IF they push in far enough to where its not gonna get you killed doing so

Now the PVP comparison here is insanely unbalanced and there is absolutely nothing specifically balancing this out in the rules. We all know what the server is like during low pop/low cop volume. It discourages players from actually being able to do what they want because there's just too much risk involved. Take this raid for example, despite all the odds we held out pretty long and took more of them down than they did us. However the key difference maker here was their unlimited supply of resources vs our very limited supply. So if the raiders have the advantage from the get go. Advantage examples being

1) Element of surprise
2) Unlimited backup
3) Unlimited resources

Why is there no rules in place to balance this out? This PVP scenario is meant to be realistic but it unfortunately just isn't with the sheer fact that its Garry's mod and low pop hours are a thing AND cops aren't always responsive or active. A few rules to even the playing field would be helpful seeing as the defenders already take the risk of basing (alone or with a few friends) by spending large amounts of money to start up whatever illegal activity they wanna dip their toes into. The least we could do is make basing more tolerable during the dead times with a few regulations.

I would love to hear the communities thoughts on the matter and maybe even suggestions of rules that could be set in place to balance out this massive difference. I expect a mixed batch of opinions but who knows, maybe I'm the only one who sees an issue with basing being completely not worth it 75% of the time you're on the server. Let me know what you guys think!

 

[JucaMais]

I personally think that the advantage of standing still holding a place, forcing only the opposite party to get into it, is already a giant perk to "counter-balance" the seemly infinite backup members that the opposite party can call.

 

[Tyro]

Your really missing a lot here. Defenders have many advantages over attackers. First of all, its clear you were not prepared to defend at all, you had no meds on you and no extra ammo until you looted your friend. Also, you held that base very poorly in my opinion but that's not the point. As defenders you have the ability to call anyone outside to counter as well. The longer the attackers spend outside the more time they risk being seen by a cop and getting countered by police. Attackers also do not have unlimited resources. When an attacker gets hit a lot or runs low on ammo and meds, he's not gonna drive all the way back to gun store and hospital to buy more. Its only on rare occasion that they have somebody to come bring more. There were many things you could of done there to come out on top. Especially since you were in one of the most overpowered bases on the map. It seems to me inexperience and a lack of meds/ammo and nobody on the outside to help is what cost you, not unbalance.

 

[RekonZero]

I personally think that the advantage of standing still holding a place, forcing only the opposite party to get into it, is already a giant perk to "counter-balance" the seemly infinite backup members that the opposite party can call.

Most places that are rentable don't have this luxury unfortunately, even with this luxury we stood no chance. Shocker. Regardless this isn't suppose to be a post about putting anyone down (unless you're you who came to this post specifically to talk smack) its about the feedback and opinions of the community. Who cares about the outcome of the raid, talk about the balancing that goes into these PVP situations constantly. Especially during low pop and low cop hours.

 

[RekonZero]

Your really missing a lot here. Defenders have many advantages over attackers. First of all, its clear you were not prepared to defend at all, you had no meds on you and no extra ammo until you looted your friend. Also, you held that base very poorly in my opinion but that's not the point. As defenders you have the ability to call anyone outside to counter as well. The longer the attackers spend outside the more time they risk being seen by a cop and getting countered by police. Attackers also do not have unlimited resources. When an attacker gets hit a lot or runs low on ammo and meds, he's not gonna drive all the way back to gun store and hospital to buy more. Its only on rare occasion that they have somebody to come bring more. There were many things you could of done there to come out on top. Especially since you were in one of the most overpowered bases on the map. It seems to me inexperience and a lack of meds/ammo and nobody on the outside to help is what cost you, not unbalance.

I have already talked about most of these points in my post. Low cop hours and most players not having 9 people on standby if you get raided. Once again the raid its self is an example of my main topic here which is the fact that they CAN do all of the above mentioned things and they will always be more prepared than the defenders seeing as most people get together and talk about going raiding and that excites other players to want to join in. Basing is not as exciting and will never be. Not if this is the potential difference between them. You can say lack of experience but the average player will perform similarly or even worse daily. And you really think the defenders have the advantage here? I'm sorry but you are just wrong sir. Maybe re-read the post and try again?

 

[Mak]

You literally have the upper advantage here. The base you are defending is overpowered asf, if you know how to hold it properly. As Tyro mentioned, you can have counters on the outside which also gives you an advantage. If you had just came prepared and if you guys knew how to hold it, you would have won the raid easily.

 

[RekonZero]

You literally have the upper advantage here. The base you are defending is overpowered asf, if you know how to hold it properly. As Tyro mentioned, you can have counters on the outside which also gives you an advantage. If you had just came prepared and if you guys knew how to hold it, you would have won the raid easily.

As I have previously stated in my replies to the others, the average player wouldn't have the experience needed to defend from such raids like this. Especially if they're just starting out or have been on for a few weeks, they wont be able to do anything vs this. This raid is a prime example of what no regulations on raids looks like. There was maybe 20-30 people on at the time and 1-2 cops the whole 3 hours I played. Not to mention the times the server is even lower population. Defenders cannot call for backup like the attackers did in this raid seeing as the server doesn't see its population grow until the later hours. Defenders cannot always be prepared for anything like a lot of these raiding groups are. And defenders will not always be in the best base for a raid like this. Seeing as we came out on top in kills with no reinforcements and 1 man down early into the raid it just shows how unbalanced it all is. We could argue biased here but you'd rather talk about experience as if the majority of players know how to defend perfectly against a raid in every base. That's just unrealistic and a invalid argument all around. I suggest you re-read some of the post and try again. You completely missed the bigger topic here which is the fact that the community has no regulations on raids during the hours when the server isn't at its peak for realism and it discourages new or just starting out players from basing all together seeing as the balance is heavily swayed in the veteran attackers vs the defenders. No wonder we have so many noobish and younger cops all the time, they can't even dip their toes in the crim lifestyle without being forced into a PVP scenario that highly favors the attacking side.

 

[RekonZero]

If anyone actually has some intellectual insight or opinion on the topic rather than some dumb immature remark about the execution or whatever, I'd love to press the topic further with some idea's and suggestions.

 

[Tyro]

I have already talked about most of these points in my post. Low cop hours and most players not having 9 people on standby if you get raided. Once again the raid its self is an example of my main topic here which is the fact that they CAN do all of the above mentioned things and they will always be more prepared than the defenders seeing as most people get together and talk about going raiding and that excites other players to want to join in. Basing is not as exciting and will never be. Not if this is the potential difference between them. You can say lack of experience but the average player will perform similarly or even worse daily. And you really think the defenders have the advantage here? I'm sorry but you are just wrong sir. Maybe re-read the post and try again?

Your logic here is very irrational, you do not need 9 counters to win a raid, and no, not everyone is gonna perform like you. If your so upset over being raided by large groups, maybe join a different org. Or base somewhere else thats less obvious. It more or less seems to me that you just made this post after loosing just this 1 raid and is entirely based off this 1 experience.

 

[Mak]

You're making 0 sense here. You clearly cannot handle losing a primary.

 

[RekonZero]

You're making 0 sense here. You clearly cannot handle losing a primary.

And you clearly don't understand the discussion at hand. So just move along, thank you for your input.

 

[RekonZero]

Your logic here is very irrational, you do not need 9 counters to win a raid, and no, not everyone is gonna perform like you. If your so upset over being raided by large groups, maybe join a different org. Or base somewhere else thats less obvious. It more or less seems to me that you just made this post after loosing just this 1 raid and is entirely based off this 1 experience.

I’ve been on the server for months, this was just the best showcase of everything I’ve been saying since day 1 so I took advantage and created a dissuasion out of it. Those who think I’m upset about losing the raid or losing my stuff have completely missed the mark on what this discussion was suppose to be about. The guys who raided us offered to give our stuff back multiple times already (at least some have) and we’ve refused because what’s done is done. I can make the guns we lost, I have more LSD I can make, that’s not the issue. The big issue is the way raids are unregulated in its current state and how it affects our new and rising members. We’ve all be there at one point or another, everyone gets use to it eventually or they just don’t come back to the server. Regardless there’s room for improvement here and I’m just shining light on that topic by opening a community discussion. It really isn’t that complex and is a fairly simple to understand if you can place yourself in both sides shoes. My org does plenty of raiding and it often ends up like this, out numbered out gunned and no chance for the defenders. (Aside from our few members who never carry anything better than a pistol) this is just an extreme example of what it looks like when the circumstances are at its worst for the defenders and its brutal, very unbalanced. Now if you have anything to add to the discussion please do, rather than creating your own sub discussion under mine we should try and stay on topic here.

 

[Zyzz]

I’ve been on the server for months, this was just the best showcase of everything I’ve been saying since day 1 so I took advantage and created a dissuasion out of it. Those who think I’m upset about losing the raid or losing my stuff have completely missed the mark on what this discussion was suppose to be about. The guys who raided us offered to give our stuff back multiple times already (at least some have) and we’ve refused because what’s done is done. I can make the guns we lost, I have more LSD I can make, that’s not the issue. The big issue is the way raids are unregulated in its current state and how it affects our new and rising members. We’ve all be there at one point or another, everyone gets use to it eventually or they just don’t come back to the server. Regardless there’s room for improvement here and I’m just shining light on that topic by opening a community discussion. It really isn’t that complex and is a fairly simple to understand if you can place yourself in both sides shoes. My org does plenty of raiding and it often ends up like this, out numbered out gunned and no chance for the defenders. (Aside from our few members who never carry anything better than a pistol) this is just an extreme example of what it looks like when the circumstances are at its worst for the defenders and its brutal, very unbalanced. Now if you have anything to add to the discussion please do, rather than creating your own sub discussion under mine we should try and stay on topic here.

Server feels like rust atm 2 dudes getting zerged by 8 - 9 people deep when theyre just crushing ores pretty bad experience ngl

 

[Mak]

The big issue is the way raids are unregulated in its current state and how it affects our new and rising members. We’ve all be there at one point or another, everyone gets use to it eventually or they just don’t come back to the server. Regardless there’s room for improvement here and I’m just shining light on that topic by opening a community discussion. It really isn’t that complex and is a fairly simple to understand if you can place yourself in both sides shoes.

Look, defend your base kill the raiders not hard. Or you can base in a not so public area. There's no "it's not fair for the defenders", that is a complete lie. The defense side always have the upper advantage to begin with.

My org does plenty of raiding and it often ends up like this, out numbered out gunned and no chance for the defenders. (Aside from our few members who never carry anything better than a pistol) this is just an extreme example of what it looks like when the circumstances are at its worst for the defenders and its brutal, very unbalanced.

Idk if it's just me, but i've never seen you guys raid a place. And the out numbered thing is the last word to bring up in your case, you have an org with 50+ people in it. Look i'm not trying to be a complete douchebag, but I have never seen a thread complaining about defending lmao

 

[RekonZero]

Look, defend your base kill the raiders not hard. Or you can base in a not so public area. There's no "it's not fair for the defenders", that is a complete lie. The defense side always have the upper advantage to begin with.


Idk if it's just me, but i've never seen you guys raid a place. And the out numbered thing is the last word to bring up in your case, you have an org with 50+ people in it. Look i'm not trying to be a complete douchebag, but I have never seen a thread complaining about defending lmao

Another swing and a miss lmao it’s like you aren’t even trying to understand the bigger picture lol

 

[RekonZero]

Server feels like rust atm 2 dudes getting zerged by 8 - 9 people deep when theyre just crushing ores pretty bad experience ngl

It’s common. More people raid than base these days and if they do base they usually aren’t doing much worth raiding for. It’s a struggle for the defenders for sure