Counter Raiding Cops with Home Ownership

[Deleted member 10559]

I am going to say this once again: THERE NEEDS TO BE A WHITELIST FOR COPS. I understand that this may not be the right place to adress this but the cop minging/rule breaking is getting out of hand. The amount of times I've been forced out of my vehicle and searched for running a red light is incredible. And don't get me started on the FALSE RAIDS. The cops have invaded my home while I've been making illegal items because "there was a call in the area reporting suspiscous activity". There needs to be stricter rules on rulebreaks regarding cops at the least, and I hope there is a whitelist.

There is a report system in place for a reason. It is also up to the players to exercise their rights, such as denying access to police who are trying to search your property. Talk to high command if a police is harrassing. That’s right, rp it out. If it goes too far make a report.

 

[RyanV]

+Support, staff would never abolish it because they are bias towards making cops "balanced", the fact that they can come back twice is already overdoing it in my opinion but you know its fun losing a majority of cop raids because they decide to pull up when haft the org is running errands...then again there are often times where we massacre the cop force...Nonetheless it really depends on how many cops are on duty at the time, which will decide if you win the raid or not. A lot of people have tried to get this rule changed in the past and have failed, there's really no point.

 

[Quitsdrop]

HI there, I want to add my own 2 cents to this. I personally believe that abolishing this rule could add much more diversity in game to the police roleplay. I have seen incredible combat/hostage/raid roleplay (on the side of police) before, and it would be really awesome to make that sort of behaviour necessary for raids, hostage situations, and counters to result in police wins.


Here are some things that I believe this rule hinders:

Police *should* be making roadblocks, barriers, having cadets/officers escort people away from exclusion zones/raid sites/shots fired scenes, however, this is seldom done.

Police should have the ability (and I suppose they do, it is just never really needed/used) to use SWAT snipers not just as an offensive capability, but much as a defensive. Imagine you are countering police, and you get sniped in the back. Everyone else in your party will think twice before crossing the corner, going around that car, or whatever; they have no clue where they are being shot from.

Criminals have much more adversity to save their friends, and many more ways to get their friends out of trouble. It really just isn't any fun (on both sides) to have someone sit there and watch his friend get dragged away in a raid, or get killed in a raid, just to have to go PD raid for him 5 minutes later.

 

[Water_Melon]

+support for me

I’ve seen many amazing points in this thread so far. By the looks of it so far more people are in favour of abolishing the rule but that can change quickly. I feel like this could greatly enhance cop raids and make them more interesting for cops and players.
Many times when cops overpower the civs (by amount of people) cops can just sit outside the house and wait for the defenders to waste all their ammo, waste medkits and eventually die. This goes both ways as the defenders could just wait till the cops get impatient or till they waste their resources. So applying this change would make raids more fun for cops and civs because cops dont just have to sit there and wait, instead they can create roadblocks and watch for counter-raiders. As for civs the situations where they are stuck and cant do anything would be less numerous. In addition they would have to plan it out as the cops would be watching for counter raiders.

This could have a great impact on cop raids on the server. Even if the suggestion ends up denied I can see alternatives being suggested.

 

[vice]

+support even though it wont happen
it makes complete sense for people with keys to the base to counter or people with freq cops already win majority of cop raids doesnt make sense why we can counter players but not police
idk

 

[Tyro]

The rule is in place to keep a certain balance. And by balance I don't mean for each party to be equally matched. The criminals represent a gang or criminal organisation in a major US city of maybe 20-50 people maximum. The police represent the entire city's force of law enforcement, potentially numbering in the thousands, depending on the size of the city.
Cops and criminals aren't ment to be equally matched in a straight up full on battle. The police are meant to be a significant threat to be escaped when found, or avoided altogether if possible.

Now, my biggest issue with this debate every time it gets brought up is this.
The two life rule and free equipment is always mentioned as the biggest strength of police.
The advantage you get from defending chokepoints, generally better equipment and cooperation is mentioned as the strengths of criminals.

But for some reason the biggest strength for criminals and the biggest weakness for cops is never brought up.
As a criminal fighting cops, you know who the enemy is. He is easily visible, easy to pick out, and most importantly he often can not shoot first!
The cops on the other hand, have no idea who is a criminal or a random civ running by or just watching.
If the rule we're discussing was removed, the cops would be shot in the back 9 times out of 10 without having the slightest chance to defend themselves, simply because they have no way of ascertaining who the enemy is.

Now you may mention "set up a perimeter, keep it clear and it wont be an issue".
From personal experience, every time I've set up a perimeter as a cop, within the first five minutes some random dude in a big ass truck comes ramming through it with 100 mph. And that is with the rule in place.

This is not to mention the general un-organized state of the police at most times, the unwillingness of many players to RP and stay out of a perimeter instead of minging inside it, the number of new inexperienced players as cops and so on.

All of these things put together would, with the removal of the rule, handicap the police immensely, almost remove them as a threat in raids, and scare people away from playing it since you would be shot from behind by people you can't take action against until they've already killed you.
And police can't cuff people near a raid or crime scene as a pre-emptive method of survival, since most of you know from personal experience how many reports and how much complaining you do if you are cuffed for "no raisins".



TLDR: without said rule cops would be a joke in raids and not stand a chance.

You still fail to cover the solution that a lot of people have proposed, that being they only CRIMINALS IN THE SAME ORGANIZATION AS THE DEFENDERS may be allowed to counter. This is easy to regulate, any spectating staff can easily remove anyone trying to counter who is not in the org.

 

[Shiblamo]

You still fail to cover the solution that a lot of people have proposed, that being they only CRIMINALS IN THE SAME ORGANIZATION AS THE DEFENDERS may be allowed to counter. This is easy to regulate, any spectating staff can easily remove anyone trying to counter who is not in the org.

Often times bases can contain up to 3 different orgs, so it would be extremely difficult to differentiate them from everyone else during the raid. The radio frequency part would also be difficult to differentiate for reasons I won’t go into here. On top of that I can see those kind of situations just sparking more ReportRp and a sit like that would be a massive headache. Paraphrasing what Thy said, the police force is not meant to be reckoned with. If they have an advantage at all it’s on purpose and for the sake of realism.

 

[Thy]

You still fail to cover the solution that a lot of people have proposed, that being they only CRIMINALS IN THE SAME ORGANIZATION AS THE DEFENDERS may be allowed to counter. This is easy to regulate, any spectating staff can easily remove anyone trying to counter who is not in the org.

Police still won’t be able to defend against it which was my main point. Unless you suggest they cuff anyone in the vicinity that is in the same org as a single resident inside.
And that is assuming that they know what org owns the property, which more often than not, they don’t.

The rule hasn’t always been there, but it was implemented for a reason. Before that, police was more or less unplayable in a raid. Yes I know, back then they didn’t have two life’s and so on, but even with that, I see them loosing raids almost as often as they win them.

 

[BoKe]

Often times bases can contain up to 3 different orgs, so it would be extremely difficult to differentiate them from everyone else during the raid. The radio frequency part would also be difficult to differentiate for reasons I won’t go into here. On top of that I can see those kind of situations just sparking more ReportRp and a sit like that would be a massive headache. Paraphrasing what Thy said, the police force is not meant to be reckoned with. If they have an advantage at all it’s on purpose and for the sake of realism.

First of all like @Thy said cops have the disadvantage of not knowing who is the enemy so you basically just said the reason you think we should not add this rule because of what the cops disadvantage is suppose to be, just sounds like a excuse of not adding in this rules when a lot of people are giving feedback and telling you guys that we disagree and you just say oh we are not gonna change the rules because this is what we think you need to think about the players to and listen and not ignore us.

 

[Thy]

First of all like @Thy said cops have the disadvantage of not knowing who is the enemy so you basically just said the reason you think we should not add this rule because of what the cops disadvantage is suppose to be, just sounds like a excuse of not adding in this rules when a lot of people are giving feedback and telling you guys that we disagree and you just say oh we are not gonna change the rules because this is what we think you need to think about the players to and listen and not ignore us.

Not to be an asshole but last time we listened to a player vote on the forums, player count on the server dropped to less than 35 players daily on average.

81,7% voted for, 12,7% voted no, so we listened and implemented the suggestion. Some folk may know what im talking about.

We are not ignoring this suggestion, nor the opinions that you guys have. If we were, I wouldn’t be replying to this thread at all.
However we don’t accept every single suggestion that has a certain number of people backing it.
This can have a number of reason: prioritization of resources, gamemode limitations, timeframe, gamemode balance, or incompatibility with future updates/plans.

One thing you can always be certain of, whether you agree with us or no, we want to do our best for the community, otherwise we wouldn’t have spent three years creating it.

At the time of writing this, the suggestion has an almost equal division in support and opposition, with 58,1% voting for and 41,9% voting against.
Not quite the overwhelming support that you make it sound like, which hopefully makes the managements lack of support for the suggestion seem a little less “tyrannical” than you make it sound.

 

[Water_Melon]

Not to be an asshole but last time we listened to a player vote on the forums, player count on the server dropped to less than 35 players daily on average.

81,7% voted for, 12,7% voted no, so we listened and implemented the suggestion. Some folk may know what im talking about.

We are not ignoring this suggestion, nor the opinions that you guys have. If we were, I wouldn’t be replying to this thread at all.
However we don’t accept every single suggestion that has a certain number of people backing it.
This can have a number of reason: prioritization of resources, gamemode limitations, timeframe, gamemode balance, or incompatibility with future updates/plans.

One thing you can always be certain of, whether you agree with us or no, we want to do our best for the community, otherwise we wouldn’t have spent three years creating it.

At the time of writing this, the suggestion has an almost equal division in support and opposition, with 58,1% voting for and 41,9% voting against.
Not quite the overwhelming support that you make it sound like, which hopefully makes the managements lack of support for the suggestion seem a little less “tyrannical” than you make it sound.

Just curious, can you specify which suggestion you are talking about.
Also, I’m sure that it’s not only me that noticed that you are listening to what we have to say because it wasnt denied and locked right away. I appreciate the communication and love the debate type discussion going on. Glad to see the interest in what the community has to say.

 

[Thy]

Just curious, can you specify which suggestion you are talking about.

The thread about switching from Truenorth to Paralake. You can't see it since it's been archived but here's a screenshot

 

[A Sack O' Salt]

This rule is in place that way the random john doe can’t clear out the cops from behind that way he gets a few frags and is invited into the gang.
Thy basically summed it up perfectly. It’s not meant to be a fair fight, and that’s the risk you take trying to make money. Although I do agree that if you’re the OWNER of the property (this doesn’t mean your buddy gave you keys), like if you rented the house, you should be able to come back and try to deter the police away.

 

[Ultera]

-Support I do agree that being cop raided is the most annoying thing that can happen. But still you are not a drug cartel leader that has many goons. No one in their right mind would go and counter raid cops in real life. The risk is just to high for them to do it.

Now, my biggest issue with this debate every time it gets brought up is this.
The two life rule and free equipment is always mentioned as the biggest strength of police.
The advantage you get from defending chokepoints, generally better equipment and cooperation is mentioned as the strengths of criminals.

But for some reason the biggest strength for criminals and the biggest weakness for cops is never brought up.
As a criminal fighting cops, you know who the enemy is. He is easily visible, easy to pick out, and most importantly he often can not shoot first!
The cops on the other hand, have no idea who is a criminal or a random civ running by or just watching.
If the rule we're discussing was removed, the cops would be shot in the back 9 times out of 10 without having the slightest chance to defend themselves, simply because they have no way of ascertaining who the enemy is.

Now you may mention "set up a perimeter, keep it clear and it wont be an issue".
From personal experience, every time I've set up a perimeter as a cop, within the first five minutes some random dude in a big ass truck comes ramming through it with 100 mph. And that is with the rule in place.

This is not to mention the general un-organized state of the police at most times, the unwillingness of many players to RP and stay out of a perimeter instead of minging inside it, the number of new inexperienced players as cops and so on.

All of these things put together would, with the removal of the rule, handicap the police immensely, almost remove them as a threat in raids, and scare people away from playing it since you would be shot from behind by people you can't take action against until they've already killed you.
And police can't cuff people near a raid or crime scene as a pre-emptive method of survival, since most of you know from personal experience how many reports and how much complaining you do if you are cuffed for "no raisins".

-support. When I play cops, and we conduct a raid on evolane 1, I shit you not there are like 16 people with acrs and like 400 meds each. The cops cant deal with that stuff.

+Support I will start this off with my own opinion before moving to each of the quotes.
This rule was implemented a long time ago back on Rockford in a time when a few other criminal limiting rules were also implemented, some still in the rules some removed as they were clearly ridiculous and biased (Limiting number of people in a base). Correct me if I'm wrong but this rule was added roughly around the same time the rule was added that you must stay on your own property during a raid (That rule was potentially added after as a further nerf) but regardless there are 2 rules protecting cops and keeping their enemies in front of them, completely contained in a building they can easily swarm and overpower with their immense manpower (as they should). But this prevents criminals from being able to cut and run and forcing whoever is inside to hunker down inside and prepare for the ensuing firefight. I understand that Monoford doesn't have as many strange angles to jump off the houses and into the street as Rockford did (Which is why that rule should also be in question) but even keeping that rule lets say you just left your base to grab some more coke supplies and cops decide to raid, now instead of a strong 5-7 man base all people who left to get supplies are now out of the raid and have to hope the 2-4 people inside can defend against the full force of the police without any backup.

Now to begin on the comments, @Mr.Alex the real life argument is completely pointless as in many rules it is clear realism, while appreciated is in no way how server balancing works.Police are randomly shot at and or killed all the time.

@uwu When raiding as cop even against "16" people all armed with ACRs you can get all SWAT and SGT+ officers to push effectively and peak at good times to slowly whittle the criminals away, worse case scenario you sacrifice a few lives to trade kills and then the cops who died can simply come back to push again.

And finally @Thy While you make good points and clearly articulate your side better than the other people you also make some slightly uninformed comments. Cops have reached a point where they are better equipped or equipped on the same level as even end game criminals. The M4 is a very strong rifle and when paired with free med kits, free kevlar AND sometimes a competent player with a bullet-proof one way riot shield, the police force can be an unstoppable monster without the proper angles. Making a perimeter around a raid and keeping it organized would increase the amount of RP police have to do, if players decided to jump in it and minge while being not related to the raid they can be warned/kicked for FailRP as I've seen happen hundreds of times during bank robberies.

And as a closing remark I'd like to add that I dont believe this rule should just be deleted, simply reworded to allow people with keys to the base or items deployed inside the base permission to counter-raid police. Bank, PD, and non-affiliated player's bases will still be uncounterable. currently the rule reads:

During a police raid, only the current occupants of the base are allowed to defend the base. This is to prevent random civilians with no affiliations to shoot at the police for fun. To be clear: If you are not in the base at the start of the police raid, you can not actively intervene at all.

I believe it should just be reworded to say "During a police raid, only occupants in the base, those who have keys to the base, and those with items deployed inside of the base are allowed to defend the base. This is to prevent random civillians with no affiliation to shoot at police for fun."

 

[Karol]

Would it be possible to let the community vote on the whole ordeal? I believe that the thoughts of the many are better than the thoughts of the few, in this case, the cops.

 

[Buddyro22]

If possible this gets implemented there should be an expansion on behalf of the P.D. More Sgts maybe another LT . Since RP wise majority of cops use pistols against heavily armed organizations. It says monoford uses US laws but the city is being ran like down south , BY THE CARTELS .

 

[Water_Melon]

The thread about switching from Truenorth to Paralake. You can't see it since it's been archived but here's a screenshot
View attachment 8928

I dont think you should count a map change as the community voting for something and it not working out because when people experience the lag on that map it makes sense that players stop playing. People may have wanted it but on any map lag ruins the experience.

 

[SKuLLzSKiLLz]

Suggestions like this appear every 6 months and while I never play cop I do not see this being implemented.

1) This is very hard to moniter like this has been said before, however I do think that setting up a perimeter should be actually meaningful. There should be some actual realism in this aspect. However allowing counter raiders is not going to happen.

I do think that cops should be nerfed a tiny bit in raiding maybe the two life rule or even adding an extra two minutes to cops deceased time which would give criminals some more time to escape. What do people think of this concept?