Police Department Discussion

[StewartJames]

As you all know a lot of changes have been made to the police department, which have seen a great improvement in conduct and effectiveness.

However, the relationship between police and normal citizens has not yet reached a point of harmony. It seems more structural changes will be needed to get there.

The current situation seems to be that
A) Civilians still do not trust cops,
B) Cops often default to their most basic instincts under pressure rather than any strategic organisation,
C) A large proportion of police interactions lead to either a shootout or a report - even though there are relatively few rules that directly mention police, these seem to make up the bulk of supposed rulebreaks.
D) Career criminals have no relationship with the PD except a hatred that expands each time they lose cash as a result.

The end result which leads to good RP would be and environment that
A) Encourages players to stop for police in traffic stops instead of immediately fleeing.
B) Leads to community meetings between cops and civs that do not become arrests or shootouts.
C) We have a police department that can take a joke from civilians to encourage funny and enjoyable RP.
D) Career criminals can expect to have a conversation rather than simply be player targeted by the PD.

The motivators for this is cops might die fewer times, civs will have fewer guns and items confiscated and feel treated more fairly, and there will be fewer shootouts in the streets.

The obstacles are as follows:
A) Our PD is held to guidelines designed for civilian environments, and yet the PD faces military grade firearms in squads of more than three regularly. For many situations, PD training and policy does not apply. (e.g there is nothing in traffic policy about what to do if three extra vehicles pull up and start shooting)
B) The PD is held under more or less the same OOC rules for killing as civilians, and yet are held to "failrp" if they do not follow policy. Issues can arise when policy and rules therefore contradict. What is realistic may not be allowed, and most realistic roleplay is currently a grey area.
C) There is not currently any guidance on what reasonable suspicion constitutes.

Possible steps forward could include
A) Making changes to the gun economy so individuals do not ride around armed like warlords.
B) Relaxing rules around police officers so that reasonable suspicion AT THE TIME can be used as justification, as is with real life.
C) Creating more stringent and applicable rules for police officers - for example, stating exactly the circumstances that entail reasonable cause, reasonable force, and what is expected OOC.
D) Altering the fearrp rule so cops can actually force a conversation with civilians at gunpoint.
E) Through development, adding more less lethal tools such as cameras, tracking devices or in-car deployable spikes to reduce the NEED to kill.
F) Creating systems that allow civilians to expect lessened consequences for their actions if they are compliant.

I bring this up because even I as a staff member and PD trainer am finding it hard to have any success in policing at the moment that does not rely on killing, or waiting until it is legal and allowed to kill a civilian. I have seen many situations, including with myself, where the constant stress and putting out fires leads to accidental rulebreaks when juggling rules, policy, law, and downright effectiveness.

I'm putting this out therefore to ask the community what their thoughts might be on changes that can improve the levels of fun for both sides. I don't know enough about the criminal experience nor the gamemode balancing to advise on this, so I don't support any of the possibilities in the steps forward section, I only wish to highlight the issues at hand.

Hopefully, if good ideas arise as a result that a few agree on, I can bring those to management. I'd also be excited to see management's feelings about this, as I'm sure we didn't want the TDMish approach we have at the moment.

PLEASE LET ME KNOW ANY ISSUES YOU FIND AND THEN A POSSIBLE SOLUTION
DO NOT JUST LIST EVERYTHING YOU FEEL IS ANNOYING OR EVERYTHING YOU DO NOT WANT

Thanks, think outside the box!!

 

[Deleted member 10793]

I agree with you on the final step of the possible steps forward you have created but for some of the others I heavily disagree. Buffing the fear rp rule which is what I think you are getting at is imo a ban idea, it forces ppl to comply and just isn't fun/enjoyable. A lot of major problems is what is needed to be fixed so that PD/Civs can act better/more accordingly. Mainly - It isn't worth pulling over for police anymore, here is why. I get it is frustrating playing cop then having to deal with armed ppl every time but most of the time ppl are armed to stop cops from arresting em. Being pulled over now normally just ends like this. You pull over they say get out of the car from their car not even getting out. You say no and ask why then they get out try to put you under fear rp or spike ur car, which just leads to a shootout. Idk how to fix smth like this, I think its because of when u get arrested a lot of the time it is just an afk sim (btw if anyone says "dont do the crime if you cant do the crime as a response ur an idiot). Prison has gotten better with more guards and stuff on but a lot of the time they are very mingy and they will just leave u in ur cell or tase/baton spam u, then kill you. It is hard to trust cops now because the majority of the time now cops feel as if they are gonna die so they instantly detain or give u huge tickets then ride off, Not saying they are wrong they defo could be killed but smth needs to be to de-escalate that kinda stuff. On a side note, the reason every rolls around armed and fights cops is cus there is not much fun shit to do now. You cant passive rp unless u are a staff member or have a lot of ppl who want to do it which is extremely rare. Grinding isn't fun most of the time and is normally just sitting clicking ur mouse for hours on end. Also a lot of ppl who frequently play PD are very mingy and will talk shit to you/on ur org when you get arrested, if you are gonna play cop you should try to be professional not get down to the criminals lvl. I think that a system to lower jail times/ticket amounts if you comply would help this greatly and should be implemented. - A rant from someone who plays cop and criminal a lot.

 

[StewartJames]

I agree with you on the final step of the possible steps forward you have created but for some of the others I heavily disagree. Buffing the fear rp rule which is what I think you are getting at is imo a ban idea, it forces ppl to comply and just isn't fun/enjoyable. A lot of major problems is what is needed to be fixed so that PD/Civs can act better/more accordingly. Mainly - It isn't worth pulling over for police anymore, here is why. I get it is frustrating playing cop then having to deal with armed ppl every time but most of the time ppl are armed to stop cops from arresting em. Being pulled over now normally just ends like this. You pull over they say get out of the car from their car not even getting out. You say no and ask why then they get out try to put you under fear rp or spike ur car, which just leads to a shootout. Idk how to fix smth like this, I think its because of when u get arrested a lot of the time it is just an afk sim (btw if anyone says "dont do the crime if you cant do the crime as a response ur an idiot). Prison has gotten better with more guards and stuff on but a lot of the time they are very mingy and they will just leave u in ur cell or tase/baton spam u, then kill you. It is hard to trust cops now because the majority of the time now cops feel as if they are gonna die so they instantly detain or give u huge tickets then ride off, Not saying they are wrong they defo could be killed but smth needs to be to de-escalate that kinda stuff. On a side note, the reason every rolls around armed and fights cops is cus there is not much fun shit to do now. You cant passive rp unless u are a staff member or have a lot of ppl who want to do it which is extremely rare. Grinding isn't fun most of the time and is normally just sitting clicking ur mouse for hours on end. Also a lot of ppl who frequently play PD are very mingy and will talk shit to you/on ur org when you get arrested, if you are gonna play cop you should try to be professional not get down to the criminals lvl. I think that a system to lower jail times/ticket amounts if you comply would help this greatly and should be implemented. - A rant from someone who plays cop and criminal a lot.

What I hear is maybe reducing raid timer as an option or perhaps reduce hostage timer as this is often better rp.

Also the idea that both sides feel they will be killed so shoot first rather than try to de escalate - i.e cops can't de escalate if the other side will just shoot them anyway because they don't want to go to jail, and criminals won't de escalate because they think they'll still be treated unfairly.

 

[Deleted member 10793]

What I hear is maybe reducing raid timer as an option or perhaps reduce hostage timer as this is often better rp.

Also the idea that both sides feel they will be killed so shoot first rather than try to de escalate - i.e cops can't de escalate if the other side will just shoot them anyway because they don't want to go to jail, and criminals won't de escalate because they think they'll still be treated unfairly.

Yeah i agree.

 

[StewartJames]

Another idea might be that one of the reasons kill or be killed has become the motto is the measures put in place to increase the value of life. Longer death timers and higher insurance costs have made death something feared. It may be that the player response was not surrender, but merely shooting before getting into a worse position.

 

[Deleted member 10793]

Another idea might be that one of the reasons kill or be killed has become the motto is the measures put in place to increase the value of life. Longer death timers and higher insurance costs have made death something feared. It may be that the player response was not surrender, but merely shooting before getting into a worse position.

Longer death timers doesn't work. The 8 min didn't do anything to stop and is incredibly annoying to both sides. Same with raising the insurance cost. Just will make ppl shoot faster and run instead of even trying.

 

[Deleted member 10793]

Btw bank raids aren't fun anymore due to GL a lot more ppl would do it and just get in more house raids with PD if it was gone/replaced with tear gas - do this - https://monolithservers.com/forums/threads/nerf-remove-gl.30656/

 

[FreeSpy]

A) Civilians still do not trust cops,

There's no reason for civies to trust cops. Why would we when as you mention later, it ends up being a shootout anyway. There's no point to trusting cops when most of the times being a civilian is being a criminal in the eyes of the cops. I've been both called a cop main and a mid fragger, so I've been on both sides of the spectrum when it comes to the cop v crim aspect, and I can tell you I dont trust the opposing side at all. Why would I? My life is in danger by talking to the opposing side. I've had the entire PD slaughtered by 6 people in 4 cars because of a warrant.

B) Cops often default to their most basic instincts under pressure rather than any strategic organisation,
C) A large proportion of police interactions lead to either a shootout or a report - even though there are relatively few rules that directly mention police, these seem to make up the bulk of supposed rulebreaks.
D) Career criminals have no relationship with the PD except a hatred that expands each time they lose cash as a result.

Yeah. I'm gonna fucking hate the cops if all I had happen is them acting incompoop because they dont have some evidence and I have to raid to get my items back, only to get countered by the same cops who cant raid.
If the cops dont do their jobs, I will do it myself, like.


Cops are a nuisance on the server at this point, not a real issue, but a nuisance which can easily turn into a big risk when I go raid at highpop, therefore making the game redundant for me and forcing me to raid on downtime. I 2v4'd with Rob one raid only to get countered by jeppe and some other cops like fuck that shit I lost cash bc of it and of course im gonna hate the cops if i lose cash. What's the point of fighting if the cops are gonna come to counter when everyone is low HP and no one can fight back? There is none.

Stewart, friend. Cops are nuisances to us. it's something unfixable in any other way than mass murder usually, so, I'm gonna kill cops if I have to get my shit done.

Cops break rules a lot more, and therefore we dont trust them. They cause us issues both ooc and IC. It's like saying we're supposed to like the enemy and shit, well, no, that doesnt happen. We hate them because they cause us issues and we cant do our shit without getting mass raided by all the pistolc ops of the century, ending up ona fragtage with GL users. like, shit.

A) Our PD is held to guidelines designed for civilian environments, and yet the PD faces military grade firearms in squads of more than three regularly. For many situations, PD training and policy does not apply. (e.g there is nothing in traffic policy about what to do if three extra vehicles pull up and start shooting)
B) The PD is held under more or less the same OOC rules for killing as civilians, and yet are held to "failrp" if they do not follow policy. Issues can arise when policy and rules therefore contradict. What is realistic may not be allowed, and most realistic roleplay is currently a grey area.
C) There is not currently any guidance on what reasonable suspicion constitutes.

I gotta disagree to the first point. A lot of the policy very much applies and works, you just dont apply it ingame because all the cops are incompetent 99% of the time and cant follow 2 sets of rules. Use common sense. If 3 more cars pull up with guns just fucking floor it, run away, call for backup.
The rules are for everyone to follow and if we go off of the 'well they could've' then there's gonna be a whole lot more RDM. I don't support changing the rules for the cops and cops only. That's bullshit to me. We're playing on the same server, we follow the same rules.
Then make it, like, no offense man but that sounds like a problem thats easily solveable by a bit of research (Dont wanna be mean here dude.)

Possible steps forward could include
A) Making changes to the gun economy so individuals do not ride around armed like warlords.
B) Relaxing rules around police officers so that reasonable suspicion AT THE TIME can be used as justification, as is with real life.
C) Creating more stringent and applicable rules for police officers - for example, stating exactly the circumstances that entail reasonable cause, reasonable force, and what is expected OOC.
D) Altering the fearrp rule so cops can actually force a conversation with civilians at gunpoint.

Fuck no.

A) There's a waterlog of Class 3s, that'll not work and just make guns more rarer and more annoying to get, and it isnt enjoyable to fight cops with M4s while you cant fight back. nononon that is a really bad idea

B) Reffer to my stance on rules. Follow the same rules. We're on the same server.

C) Or you know, make that for the whole server, not the cops. If you think your life is in danger and you can prove it, fuckin gun the guy down, shit.

D) No.

F) Creating systems that allow civilians to expect lessened consequences for their actions if they are compliant.

OK this I agree with.



I gotta point out something pretty obvious here. The problem isn't that there's a million class 3s or some shit, or that we have people that dont want to interact with the cops. It's the fact that cops are just plain out fucking annoying and there's no point in attempting interaction if there's no benefit to anyone. This server is run by economy, not RP. I feel as if that should be super obvious now. Police abuse their power, and hard. We've seen it hundreds of times. They are incompetent and most cant follow basic guidelines, so why add more things that are going to be unused/unfollowed by the cops. Why alter the rules if the cops are not going to follow the rules anyway? Why do any of that when nothing is going to change in the terms of interaction?

 

[Credence]

8 minute timer has become nothing but a point of pride now, when people are in a gunfight they will always try to get a headshot cause they know its an instant 8 minute they can boast about. it hasnt stopped fvtl in the slighest

 

[Alphadef]

You cant passive rp unless u are a staff member or have a lot of ppl who want to do it which is extremely rare.

At the risk of going a bit off-topic, why do you believe this to be the case?

There's no reason for civies to trust cops. Why would we when as you mention later, it ends up being a shootout anyway. There's no point to trusting cops when most of the times being a civilian is being a criminal in the eyes of the cops. I've been both called a cop main and a mid fragger, so I've been on both sides of the spectrum when it comes to the cop v crim aspect, and I can tell you I dont trust the opposing side at all. Why would I? My life is in danger by talking to the opposing side. I've had the entire PD slaughtered by 6 people in 4 cars because of a warrant.

I think you somehow missed the entire point of the thread: That the fact that neither side trust the other even a small amount and that Stewart is asking/suggesting solutions to that issue.

Cops break rules a lot more, and therefore we dont trust them. They cause us issues both ooc and IC. It's like saying we're supposed to like the enemy and shit, well, no, that doesnt happen. We hate them because they cause us issues and we cant do our shit without getting mass raided by all the pistolc ops of the century, ending up ona fragtage with GL users. like, shit.

I'm curious how you come to this conclusion? This is anecdotal, but from my side it seems pretty even usually (if not skewed towards civilians, but that's more likely because criminals have to deal with civilian v civilian and civilian v cop while cops only deal with the latter).

 

[StewartJames]

Yes, Alphadef is right, the point was missed.

Let's try that again, with the idea in mind that the two most dangerous phrases in the English language are “It's always been like that” and “That's just what people do.”

 

[Deleted member 10793]

At the risk of going a bit off-topic, why do you believe this to be the case?

Idk honestly, I think cops/ppl are less likely to mess with a staff members passive rp/break rules to fuck with em because they will get in trouble

 

[Alphadef]

Idk honestly, I think cops/ppl are less likely to mess with a staff members passive rp/break rules to fuck with em because they will get in trouble

Do you have any ideas as to how this could be improved? (Again sorry Stewart kinda taking your thread off topic but it is also an important thing)

 

[Deleted member 10793]

Do you have any ideas as to how this could be improved? (Again sorry Stewart kinda taking your thread off topic but it is also an important thing)

Honestly, no. Passive rp is hard to do because it isn't profitable and ppl dont engage with it.

 

[StewartJames]

Go for it mate passive rp is a good move to bring the two groups together.

Cops are just players on a different job role.

 

[Arroyo]

As a staff member, this is what I see from both sides.


Criminals and Civilians:

Recently from what I see criminals are starting to get bored, as a result, they start to look for action (many people have admitted it ). I also take notice that criminals tend to knowingly break rules during any combat situation or any other situation. Another situation I see is the fact of the gun economy is inflated, people have weapons for days in which if they lose any weapons it will not affect them. Then when it comes to combat, I am seeing that people are assuming someone is a cop/detective and then shooting people, then causing a staff sit. It needs to be tuned down.

Cops:

Cops get shot down for the smallest thing, if they turn the wrong corner they are dead. I do not believe limiting how much people can be involved in a shootout will do anything but from experience, I have seen about 10 people go against like 5 cops. There are also many bad cops in which they go and ticket people 5k tickets (which in my opinion, the ticket amount limit should be brought down to 2k). I also believe the fact of tow truck drivers as first job for police does not do anything, police cadet should be added back and supervisors should train these new cadets. More rp needs to be added.

 

[Deleted member 10793]

Go for it mate passive rp is a good move to bring the two groups together.

Cops are just players on a different job role.

You cant passive rp ppl dont engage in it anymore.

 

[StewartJames]

You cant passive rp ppl dont engage in it anymore.

Why do you feel that is?

 

[Deleted member 10793]

There is no incentive to do so.

Why do you feel that is?

 

[Alphadef]

Honestly, no. Passive rp is hard to do because it isn't profitable and ppl dont engage with it.

Do you believe this is something that can be changed through the player base, or does it have to come from development changes?
To be more specific, a lot of prices/cost for things are set by what other people are willing to pay for them. Take for example: Food. There are absolutely levers that the devs can use to impact food profitability (ingredient cost, cooking time [rent], availability/quality of non-cooked food), but ultimately the price of the final product is set by players.

As for engagement, I mean, part of me just wants to say "Be the change you want to see in the world" and "Seek out the passive RP, and encourage others to do the same", but I recognize that isn't exactly a perfect way of doing it, but outside of encouragement of actually setting things up (through profitability and such), I don't know how else to encourage it. Personally I've been trying to push my own RP regardless of profit through a wine shop. Its RP for RP's sake (since wine offers nothing but being drunk), which is hard for me to ask other people to do, but if you have the cash to spare I encourage anyone reading to consider trying it yourself. Not everything has to be profitable to be fun.