Player Vs Staff

[Tye]

Right, this i think are two different things being talked about. Correct me if I'm wrong.

When players say "staff are watching me" I believe they mean that the staff in question is actively following them invisible in no-clip, watching their every move.
To be completely clear, we don't follow around a specific singular player for hours on end just to be able to do a "hahah gotcha" when they slip up.
Granted, it may seem like it. We're generally only watching people in no-clip for a few certain reasons, I'll list them in a general fashion.

1. We're randomly flying around in no-clip all over the map keeping an eye on the general state of things when we see a player breaking a rule or what not. We pop out of noclip and deal with it. This can very easily seem to the player(s) that we were just watching them and waiting for a rulebreak.
2. We see an area where there's an abnormal amount of players gathered, we sometimes fly over just to see what's going on and to make sure nothing bad is happening. Experience tells us that the more players in one area, the more rulebreaks occur in a shorter time. Generally.
3. There's a situation like a raid, robbery or shootout etc. We often watch those for obvious reasons if we can.
4. A player has said or done something that leads us to believe they are about to commit a rulebreak, and therefore we watch them to act on it. This is by far the least occurring of the four.

Again the above is a general list, there can be other circumstances that leads to is watching a player. To be clear: Player targeting by staff is in no way shape or form tolerated.
You may no believe that, but if anyone comes to me with evidence of a staff member targeting or treating a player unfairly I will always look into it. My DM's are, and have always been open for the past four years, and 99% of people who message me gets a reply unless I am sleeping or inebriated.

Now, the watchlist function shown in the screenshot above is something entirely different to "watching a player" as the term is often used. The watchlist is a command that we can use to make a short message show up when a certain player connects.
These messages are often short notes to help staff online at the time to handle anything that was unfinished from another sit.
Usually these watch-messages will be things like "Has to drop 2x mp9's" or "Frequently VDM's" or anything like that. The first MP9 example is if someone gains items due to a rulebreak and they have disconnected from the server, preventing us from retrieving the items, we leave a note. That was when the player re-connects, any staff online can go delete those illegally gained items.
The frequent VDM note is simply to call attention from staff so they think "Hey, if this guy drives around really fast in a tow truck later today, I should keep an eye on it".

The watchlist is a lot less sinister than it sounds, and is generally only a tool to help the staff help you to have a better experience.

That makes sense although i feel as if it should have been public as it has been suspected there was one but no confirmation. The main issue I have is how whenever a player has said something like that they get shut down and laughed at.

 

[DevulTj]

That makes sense although i feel as if it should have been public as it has been suspected there was one but no confirmation. The main issue I have is how whenever a player has said something like that they get shut down and laughed at.

Those should never be public. Think about an ongoing Police Investigation - that's never made public until it's fulfilled.

We don't have to tell you that it exists. I don't see the problem.

 

[parkerx]

You can say or believe what you want.
You're not providing any kind of context for specific members, and you probably won't.

If it helps. We either reform said staff member to improve their conduct, or they're removed. That's the fact here.

I may have done it relatively late, but I edited my reply.

 

[Thy]

That makes sense although i feel as if it should have been public as it has been suspected there was one but no confirmation. The main issue I have is how whenever a player has said something like that they get shut down and laughed at.

We've never really thought to make it public, it's just a tool tbh. Would be like saying we can kick people if they break rules, but maybe that's just because I'm used to having the watchlist tool.
Mostly it's probably just a spoken misunderstanding between staff and players I'd assume.

 

[Tye]

Those should never be public. Think about an ongoing Police Investigation - that's never made public until it's fulfilled.

We don't have to tell you that it exists. I don't see the problem.

A police investigation isn't the same at all, it is a watchlist so staff can watch certain players. It can easily add to bias and also in the past as i said before whenever someone brought it up. They got disregarded and laughed at. Im not saying that the players on it should have been told but the existence of a watchlist was hidden.

 

[Thy]

A police investigation isn't the same at all, it is a watchlist so staff can watch certain players. It can easily add to bias and also in the past as i said before whenever someone brought it up. They got disregarded and laughed at. Im not saying that the players on it should have been told but the existence of a watchlist was hidden.

We never really "hid" it on purpose so to speak, but regardless it's been brought into the light and explained in (i hope) sufficient detail

 

[DevulTj]

A police investigation isn't the same at all, it is a watchlist so staff can watch certain players. It can easily add to bias and also in the past as i said before whenever someone brought it up. They got disregarded and laughed at. Im not saying that the players on it should have been told but the existence of a watchlist was hidden.

We use it as an information tool. We don't use it to target players. That's absurd.

 

[parkerx]

We've never really thought to make it public, it's just a tool tbh. Would be like saying we can kick people if they break rules, but maybe that's just because I'm used to having the watchlist tool.
Mostly it's probably just a spoken misunderstanding between staff and players I'd assume.

I definitely believe that the watchlist is helpful and necessary especially when used as intended and within good reason. I think @Tye is more so referring to the "stalking" of players which isn't going to stop probably lol. Sure, it's probably really annoying that as soon as you slip up and break a rule that someone physguns you and pulls you to a roof within the same second, but that's sort of their job and it is your fault for breaking that rule. Player targeting is a little different and difficult to prove, but most definitely occurs. That's a problem that is hard to fix and I can understand why I haven't seen any accepted staff reports on player targeting.

 

[Tye]

I definitely believe that the watchlist is helpful and necessary especially when used as intended and within good reason. I think @Tye is more so referring to the "stalking" of players which isn't going to stop probably lol. Sure, it's probably really annoying that as soon as you slip up and break a rule that someone physguns you and pulls you to a roof within the same second, but that's sort of their job and it is your fault for breaking that rule. Player targeting is a little different and difficult to prove, but most definitely occurs. That's a problem that is hard to fix and I can understand why I haven't seen any accepted staff reports on player targeting.

Yeah that's more what I'm saying, and to @Thy @Tj you haven't answered why in the past players have been laughed at and disregarded when they say that they feel as if they are being watched by staff and feel uncomfortable

 

[JucaMais]

There's a difference between criticism and personal targeting of our staff and CMs. People can criticize without personal insults and threats. This is why they're banned for "inciting drama."

You're right, no community can live long when there is so much drama. The fact is that these complaints and drama don't start from scratch, for no reason. there is some sort of trigger for those drama to start, an issue in the community that these players did not know or did not want to discuss in a civilized way, but they were only aggressive. People who personally attack staffs and feed/create drama should be punished, however it is impossible for all their complaints to be unfounded. There must be something that can be taken from these complaints and that could be used to improvement, but all of them were just categorized as "drama" "batlant complaint" and such things like that.

If you guys were assimilating these criticism point, instead of just banning people we would have a better monolith right now. Lots of players were disrespectfull and even insulted staff in their criticisms, but you guys could have taken the real criticism out of those comments, like removing the good meat of a fish from the bones, discussing these points that were indirectly creating drama and improving the community. There should be no such of "bad criticsm" if you want to improve something.

 

[parkerx]

Yeah that's more what I'm saying, and to @Thy @Tj you haven't answered why in the past players have been laughed at and disregarded when they say that they feel as if they are being watched by staff and feel uncomfortable

In defense of staff members, I don't know a solution to players feeling like their being watched. It's unrealistic to implement some sort of rule that says, "you can watch an individual player for a maximum of 5 minutes before switching to another". Typically, if staff members see players either A. they don't like. Or B. they know the players are prone to breaking rules, this isn't something that can or maybe should be solved. Obviously, prejudice and targeting individuals are wrong and shouldn't occur, it's just understandable that it's difficult to prove and enforce.

 

[DevulTj]

You're right, no community can live long when there is so much drama. The fact is that these complaints and drama don't start from scratch, for no reason. there is some sort of trigger for those drama to start, an issue in the community that these players did not know or did not want to discuss in a civilized way, but they were only aggressive. People who personally attack staffs and feed/create drama should be punished, however it is impossible for all their complaints to be unfounded. There must be something that can be taken from these complaints and that could be used to improvement, but all of them were just categorized as "drama" "batlant complaint" and such things like that.

If you guys were assimilating these criticism point, instead of just banning people we would have a better monolith right now. Lots of players were disrespectfull and even insulted staff in their criticisms, but you guys could have taken the real criticism out of those comments, like removing the good meat of a fish from the bones, discussing these points that were indirectly creating drama and improving the community. There should be no such of "bad criticsm" if you want to improve something.

I'm sorry, but I don't see what point you're trying to raise from this at all.

We don't ban people for simply giving criticism. If we did, like you said - the community wouldn't live long. People can't just insult staff members and be disrespectful and expect to receive no punishment. We have rules for a reason, and every person on the end of the barrel are the gun are real people. Treat them with respect, because they'll treat you with respect equally.

 

[Thy]

Player targeting is a little different and difficult to prove, but most definitely occurs. That's a problem that is hard to fix and I can understand why I haven't seen any accepted staff reports on player targeting.

I don't think we've ever claimed that it's not an issue or that it never happens. I do want to say that the vast majority of staff would never do it, but we can never rule anything out entirely.
What I do want to reiterate is that it is in no way tolerated or condoned.

Yeah that's more what I'm saying, and to @Thy @Tj you haven't answered why in the past players have been laughed at and disregarded when they say that they feel as if they are being watched by staff and feel uncomfortable

Honestly, I've myself been accused of watching someone. Now, believe me if you want or not, but I have never gone out of my way to watch a specific player unless I deemed it incredibly likely that a rulebreak was going to take place or because it had already happened. I would never watch someone just to watch them in hopes that they would slip up. That's just an incredible waste of time, and anyone who does this is honestly sad.

To bring up the laughing part.
I'm going to speak in general terms because I've not seen anyone get laughed at for saying they were being watched by staff, but I've definitely seen them be brushed off. I think it might be partially because everyone has different definitions of when you are "watching someone".
The watchlist and the four reasons I stated earlier do not fall into the category of "watching someone" at least not by the way it's framed whenever anyone has brought it up to me.

Of course we watch players, that is generally one of the duties as staff. Enforce the rules and make sure everyone plays fair. Hard to enforce rules on someone if you don't check up on them now and again.

You're right, no community can live long when there is so much drama. The fact is that these complaints and drama don't start from scratch, for no reason. there is some sort of trigger for those drama to start, an issue in the community that these players did not know or did not want to discuss in a civilized way, but they were only aggressive.

it is impossible for all their complaints to be unfounded

Agreed.
I have never said, nor will I, that none of the complaints leveled against us were founded in truth.
Some of them were completely ridiculous, unsubstantiated and slanderous with no basis in reality.
But some did hold merit. And we did try to pay attention to it, but if you have to sit through five minutes of being called a pedophile, whore, corrupt, communist, faggot, gay, ugly, fat, nerd, piece of shit etc then it's very easy to miss the 30 seconds of genuine constructive criticism at the end.
This is why there's wrong and right ways to criticize. This thread is one of the right ones.

 

[parkerx]

But some did hold merit. And we did try to pay attention to it, but if you have to sit through five minutes of being called a pedophile, whore, corrupt, communist, faggot, gay, ugly, fat, nerd, piece of shit etc then it's very easy to miss the 30 seconds of genuine constructive criticism at the end.

I certainly agree with this one in specific. We're all human and for the most part, it's difficult taking criticisms while someone is mixing in unnecessary insults. It's important to be honest with what you say (even if it's brutal), but you make it real difficult to portray your legitimate argument while talking shit. Definitely something that some players need to improve on. I feel like most people in this thread have managed to keep it civilized, but I've seen some criticisms that include personal insults and are followed by mass rdm lmao. Not the way to prove your point.

@PMX. I know that you're a pretty level-headed individual for the most part and I think you have the closest connection with the players as far as CMs go. What do you think will come of this thread? Have you seen any suggestions or criticisms you'd like to use to make some improvements? Are there any things that you've seen to bring some light to issues you haven't entirely considered?

 

[JucaMais]

I'm not going to go into too much detail, but I do agree that in certain situations we staff members can go off at some people and me personally I have had multiple experiences where I was in the wrong with the way I reply to some ban appeals / reports. And these things need to change. I am acknowledging MY mistakes and will try to improve.

Not many people has the courage and honesty to do this. With attitudes like yours, recognizing mistakes and showing your willingness to change, we gain hope that this community can change for the better.

 

[StewartJames]

I'm going to be curt, but I'm going to invite management to ease off being defensive.

I realise this server's reputation is important but frankly its mostly wonderful, funny and creative players speak worlds for it already - we don't need to dismiss each issue raised individually even if they are unfounded.

Can we instead use this thread as a very important and rare chance to listen and ask questions of disgruntled players as to how we can improve their experience and see what is viable to be taken on board.

So far we've had reduced raid timers, rule changes made until development is caught up, and more clarity and involvement in the decision making process, long term goals of the server and development, in tandem with meth and lower rent to encourage basing.

Any other thoughts along these lines that can get to the actual root of the concerns being raised here would be great!

 

[parkerx]

I'm going to be curt, but I'm going to invite management to ease off being defensive.

I realise this server's reputation is important but frankly its mostly wonderful, funny and creative players speak worlds for it already - we don't need to dismiss each issue raised individually even if they are unfounded.

Can we instead use this thread as a very important and rare chance to listen and ask questions of disgruntled players as to how we can improve their experience and see what is viable to be taken on board.

So far we've had reduced raid timers, rule changes made until development is caught up, and more clarity and involvement in the decision making process, long term goals of the server and development, in tandem with meth and lower rent to encourage basing.

Any other thoughts along these lines that can get to the actual root of the concerns being raised here would be great!

I appreciate your attempt at optimism here, but I think most players agree that the problems in management have existed far too long and this HEAVILY outweighs the progress that you've mentioned. In my opinion, the changes that you've listed lack effort. They're things that don't scream big change that revolutionizes Monolith.

Any progress is good. But this is not the direction that the majority of players would prefer.

 

[Tye]

I'm going to be curt, but I'm going to invite management to ease off being defensive.

I realise this server's reputation is important but frankly its mostly wonderful, funny and creative players speak worlds for it already - we don't need to dismiss each issue raised individually even if they are unfounded.

Can we instead use this thread as a very important and rare chance to listen and ask questions of disgruntled players as to how we can improve their experience and see what is viable to be taken on board.

So far we've had reduced raid timers, rule changes made until development is caught up, and more clarity and involvement in the decision making process, long term goals of the server and development, in tandem with meth and lower rent to encourage basing.

Any other thoughts along these lines that can get to the actual root of the concerns being raised here would be great!

A road map to let the community know what is going on, also more clarity on what staff do and how they make the decisions they make?

 

[Bapho]

I'm going to throw my two cents in here, and call it a day.​

In my whole time in this community, this is the first instance (that I've witnessed) of both Staff and Players having an open, civilized, and human discussion on the state of the community. I'm honestly super proud, like a not-so-present uncle that watches their nieces/nephews grow up from afar. I'm not one to easily form up my stream of thoughts/consciousness/opinions of a topic or activity that I'm passionate in. I'm stupid like that lmaooo I'm happy that folks here feel comfortable enough to state their criticisms, because it shows that there is a ton of passion present, and that people here truly care about this place's growth.

I share the sentiment that Monolith seems to be at a low, however, it is slowly starting to become better. Of course, there are god-knows-how-many issues with the gamemode, community dynamic and direction (and vibe I guess?) that everyone from players to Community Management seem to constantly debate on. Everyone wants something different on here, and it's physically impossible to make everyone happy. I've had my own gripes with the server since the day I came on here, but I'll be damned if the 1400(ish) hours I've put on here wasn't worth it. To be able to have someone that hooked on a Garry's Mod server above all is a testament in of itself.

Anywhosits,

I was working on a long quote-reply chain/analysis here, but I'm tired and hangry. I might finish it later. I'll TL;DR myself for now: I feel there, at times, seems to be certain points where staff may or not be compelled to either watch or keep a closer eye on a player/group of players who have reached a higher status/notoriety due to a number of reasons, short of a history of rulebreaks. Please let me know if I'm wrong, but I feel I have witnessed instances like this when a well-known player with a longer tenure on here could accidentally break a rule due to a misunderstanding (not Mass RDM/Targeting/Doxxing), and receive quite a disproportionate punishment, given their record. I admit, I may have even done this when I was a moderator, but I don't exactly remember-it was nearly two years ago.

 

[Zynthax]

We don't ban people for simply giving criticism. If we did, like you said - the community wouldn't live long. People can't just insult staff members and be disrespectful and expect to receive no punishment. We have rules for a reason, and every person on the end of the barrel are the gun are real people. Treat them with respect, because they'll treat you with respect equally.

I would like not only you but the rest of the Community Management to be truthful with this. I won't mention names, because at this point it doesn't really matter, but I have been quite a while in this community and I have had multiple bad experiences with staff members, recently I got muted in Discord during a restart for making a fair reclaim to one of the staff members and another, full of arrogance and lack of professionalism even tho I was being respectful answered me "Go cry somewhere else".
I actually got pissed off, not because he said that but how unfair the punishment got, I didn't insult anybody, I did not attack anybody... just pointed a poor RP from one of the staff members since the server crashed during a staff sit and you guys were working on it.

So far I have made a few staff reports because, to be honest, my experience overall has been good and fun, to give an example: Thy is one of the best roleplay players in the staff and I have had a lot of fun every time he joined the server.

However, episodes like this, just ruin my whole experience and that attitude MUST NOT be tolerated at all in a person that should remain as professional as possible when dealing with this kind of things, because he's the third party, right?

Just to get to the point: this is not a new problem, the disconnection between staff-community is real and everybody feels that the server is dying. Community Meetings must be done every month, it is a space where we are supposed to express our thoughts and opinions about the overall experience, but we have a community meeting once a century and I personally don't feel heard at all, because these problems that not only parkerx but the rest of the people that made comments here have pointed out are not new.